The rules of war

[Husar]

Well, I've been thinking now and then about the rules of war, like the geneva convention etc. the banning of the use of gas and so on, one might want to include not killing civilians or medics in that as well although I couldn't say whether that's part of any treaty or not as I never studied such treaties.

Well, my point for the debate is that these rules give me a weird vibe in the sense that war is usually some kind of last resort after diplomacy has failed, a type of aggression of a ruthless country/regime to gain more power or a desperate defense of a country being attacked by another. Now in any case it is a matter of life or death and the objective used to be to kill your opposition with any means necessary and there can be quite a lot of cruelty as individuals become desperate or angry etc. Now a few nations went and agreed not to use gas for example when they bash eachothers heads in which makes me wonder because once you get to the point of bashing eachothers heads in, why would you restrain yourself and give up on something that could possibly give you an edge over your enemy?
Now you can say gas is cruel but so is collecting your intestines after an artillery hit cut you open, yet they banned gas but not artillery.

I wonder why that is and so far it looks to me like this is either sheer stupidity or a move of politicians to be able to sell war as more acceptable to the public and thus be able to make more war since "it's not that cruel anyway" as if a bullet going right through someone's brain would not create a dirty mess or something.

And one might wonder why nuclear weapons aren't on such a ban list everybody should sign.

Opinions, feelings and explanations welcome.

[pevergreen]

"War is but another tool of diplomacy"

I think that if the situation justified it, a country would go to any length to defend itself/take over others/win the fight.

War will always happen, IMO. We can't prevent it. There will always be someone wanting more than they have.

[CountArach]

And one might wonder why nuclear weapons aren't on such a ban list everybody should sign.

It is (The Non-Proliferation Treaty) - but the problem is that the only people with the power to follow through on such bans are the very ones who stand to gain by not following through. IE - the Nuclear powers themselves.

I think Albert Einstein and Bertrand Russell said it best:
"Here, then, is the problem which we present to you, stark and dreadful and inescapable: Shall we put an end to the human race, or shall mankind renounce war?"

[Rhyfelwyr]

I think there is a lack of chivarly nowadays.

From now on, wars should be fought be each side selecting a champion, and them pitting him against the opponent in some sort of duel, perhaps to the death. Or perhaps the national leaders should have to fight.

But being serious, rules have always applied in warfare as they can make it much less costly for all sides involved. If competing nations or ideologies can respect each other then rules can make war much less brutal. This isn't a new phenomenon, look at the attempts to ban crossbows in the middle ages, for example.

[Husar]

But being serious, rules have always applied in warfare as they can make it much less costly for all sides involved. If competing nations or ideologies can respect each other then rules can make war much less brutal. This isn't a new phenomenon, look at the attempts to ban crossbows in the middle ages, for example.

Yes, but if you respect eachother that much, why do you go to war in the first place instead of having a respectful discussion and arriving at a conclusion that has much more respect for human life than even a "respectful war" in which usually still a lot of people, human beings(yes, I see soldiers as such), die all the time?

What you said just means (and i knew it but forgot when writing the OP) that this kind of weird attempts have been going on for quite some time, like not killing the officers or in other words, not killing the ones who send others to die because, well why?

[Mikeus Caesar]

War...war never changes.

[InsaneApache]

The rules of war = oxymoron.

To suggest that war should have rules would be hilarious if it wasn't so pathetic. It's not a game of chess.

[CountArach]

The rules of war = oxymoron.

To suggest that war should have rules would be hilarious if it wasn't so pathetic. It's not a game of chess.

So terror bombings of refugees is fine?

Shooting at the Red Cross is fine?

Torturing POWs is fine?

Forced labour from POWs is fine?

Taking a hospital by force is fine?

Shooting those who have surrendered is fine?

[Hooahguy]

"the victors make the rules"

in reality, i think the geneva convention should be thrown away, and world leaders meet to make new "rules."
like being allowed to blow up a car speeding towards you, even though you dont know his intentions.
the restrictive ROE is whats causing our troops deaths in iraq/afganistan.

[InsaneApache]

No, not fine. My view is that if you're going to war then rules are irrelevent. Wars are terrible things. Attempts to civilize wars are pipe dreams. If you decide to have rules then you need an umpire.

It's not a boxing match.

[CountArach]

"the victors make the rules"

in reality, i think the geneva convention should be thrown away, and world leaders meet to make new "rules."
like being allowed to blow up a car speeding towards you, even though you dont know his intentions.
the restrictive ROE is whats causing our troops deaths in iraq/afganistan.

The Geneva Convention is what are keeping many Iraqi and Afghan civilians alive. The number of soldiers who die pale in comparison to the number of civilians who are protected.

[Fragony]

No, not fine. My view is that if you're going to war then rules are irrelevent. Wars are terrible things. Attempts to civilize wars are pipe dreams. If you decide to have rules then you need an umpire.

It's not a boxing match.

Reading tip http://www.amazon.com/Lessons-Terror.../dp/0375508430

[Rhyfelwyr]

If diplomacy fails, then I do not see the problem in two sides agreeing on rules for their engagement.

Also IA I do not see anything funny or pathetic about it. We could have won the war in Iraq much more easily if we didn't stick to the rules - there just wouldn't be many Iraqis left.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Rules of war are developed because, appalling though war is, it does not have to descend to barbarism. The recent discussion on German versus Allied atrocity should provide evidence of that.

In the West, German forces tended to follow the Geneva Conventions. In the East, they treated their foes with malice and wickedness, as sub-humans undeserving of law. They reaped a terrible whirlwind in turn.

Rules of war are less there for the war - much more in the hope of a lasting peace.

[InsaneApache]

If diplomacy fails, then I do not see the problem in two sides agreeing on rules for their engagement.

Also IA I do not see anything funny or pathetic about it. We could have won the war in Iraq much more easily if we didn't stick to the rules - there just wouldn't be many Iraqis left.

Let's have a quick look at some of the current 'rules'.

It's OK to bayonet, shoot, stab, nuke, blow up, strangle people.

It's not OK to use landmines, gas, lasers(to blind), starve people.

Either way you're dead. Why does it matter if you get bayonetted (good) but not blinded by a laser (bad)?

Thats why it's ridiculous.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

From my perspective, the rules of war are used to punish the loser, not necessarily to apply actual justice.

[Fragony]

Let's have a quick look at some of the current 'rules'.

It's OK to bayonet, shoot, stab, nuke, blow up, strangle people.

It's not OK to use landmines, gas, lasers(to blind), starve people.

Either way you're dead. Why does it matter if you get bayonetted (good) but not blinded by a laser (bad)?

Thats why it's ridiculous.

When it comes to the weaponry and tactics I agree, but there is also such a thing such as civilians and prisoners of war, it's a good thing that there are rules of conduct when it comes to dealing with them. Safety of the soldiers should come first, but everything that is humanly possible should be done to keep civilian casualty's at it's minimum.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Not every war is total war. Nor one of attrition. Not every war decends into total barbarism. For what little they're worth, and however soon they'll be abandoned once the circle of bitterness, revenge, fear is set in motion, it is still good to have some sort of rules governing war, trying to limit barbarism.

[CBR]

The objective of war is not about killing but about enforcing your will upon the opponent through violent means. Most wars are not life and death situations for nations but wars for limited political objectives.

Wars are generally won by the side that has more stuff, is better trained or using a better plan. Using all weapons in the arsenal with no limits will generally not change the outcome but only increase the losses and suffering.

Now one could argue that if there were no limits nor any moral scruples, then wars would be so potientially horrible that no one would ever dare to fight them. But so far we live in a world where violent means is still needed and someone will always be tempted into thinking he can win a war if he just do it the right way.

It could also just mean that we end up accepting the horrible costs of unlimited wars and go ahead as usual anyway. Everyone would do his outmost to get the full NBC package and have a triggerhappy finger on the button because "Hey, the other guy is gonna do it anyway"

Imagine if soldiers knew no prisoners would be taken. Units would fight to the death even when fighting against all odds and being surrounded. The outcome would rarely change but the number of dead would be far greater. Where is the advantage in that?

Landmines have been mentioned. There were two reasons for many wanting to ban them: its use against civilians that effected the population years if not decades after the end of a conflict. And the design of many AP mines that meant maiming wounds with feet and legs blown off.

Lasers are rather difficult to defend against and potientially can be used to blanket an area and it does one thing only: makes people go permanently blind.

That is where such weapons are different. Regular weapons can cause death, wounding and even maiming but are not designed to just leave a trail of disabled veterans and civilians. The increased suffering and consequences of taking take of so many disabled people after a war is considered inhumane and bad for rebuilding after the war.

War is not fought for its own sake. If we only think of what can give the slightest advantage here and now we end up losing sight of the reason we fight the war.


CBR

[Jolt]

because once you get to the point of bashing eachothers heads in, why would you restrain yourself and give up on something that could possibly give you an edge over your enemy?

Because, besides all the humane facts that gas delivers horrid, painful deaths to many more than conventional weaponry would (An Artillery shell might kill anyone in the area of impact and anyone who was 50 m away from where the shell hit would be unharmed, but the artillery gas shell would spread over a much larger area, dooming everyone in a large area around it, furthermore, if you are well protected by both topology/terrain and vegetation, conventional artillery can deal next to nothing in damage, while Gas weapons could quickly root out, or could do it much more successfully entrenched troops) the other side can also use those weapons. Remember, the only reason why losing Japan didn't use Gas Weapons (Which would give them the edge) was the fear that in retaliation, the Americans also started using them. If Gas weapons were used. I seriously doubt Japan's defence efficiency of the last islands just as Iwo Jima would be as great as it was. Also, if Gas weapons were used by Israel on Hezbollah forts in Lebanon, it would have had much more success in rooting out the rebels from their strongholds. The other side of the coin would be colossal civilian casualties because of the use of these weapons.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

No rules in War. A famous General once said " War is Hell". In War, people die. You kill, or be killed. you have to kill that person. You might see your friends get blown up right next to you. You want me to follow rules in war, escally when I see my friend's head fly off?

Sure.

[yesdachi]

I think it is acceptable to set-up rules if for nothing other than PR, everyone knows that when the chips are down all the stops are pulled out. The biggest issue is when you are at war with a country that you are not really at war with, what “rules” do you have then? And how do you respond to them breaking the rules? See the Syria helicopter attack thread.

[Fragony]

No rules in War. A famous General once said " War is Hell". In War, people die. You kill, or be killed. you have to kill that person. You might see your friends get blown up right next to you. You want me to follow rules in war, escally when I see my friend's head fly off?

Sure.

Take a town, shag&sack? It might be a bit silly to have but when violated it is pretty broadly condemned no matter how useless the UN really is. See the UN as a global group-therapy session with the right idea in mind.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

So terror bombings of refugees is fine?

Shooting at the Red Cross is fine?

Torturing POWs is fine?

Forced labour from POWs is fine?

Taking a hospital by force is fine?

Shooting those who have surrendered is fine?

Judging from the 20th century track record of almost everyone, we'd probably have to say "yes."

[LittleGrizzly]

These rules have saved countless lives throughout the years, they basically protect everyone, even if your enemy does not follow these rules by holding yourself to a higher moral standard you can show that you are the on the side of right...

Besides, these days any developed country that doesn't follow these rules gets such a pr backlash that it is worth following them for that reason alone...

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

These rules have saved countless lives throughout the years, they basically protect everyone, even if your enemy does not follow these rules by holding yourself to a higher moral standard you can show that you are the on the side of right...

Besides, these days any developed country that doesn't follow these rules gets such a pr backlash that it is worth following them for that reason alone...

Backlash? As in the UN sending them a letter saying they "the bad country are being bad boys" because they didn't follow rules?

[InsaneApache]

Besides, these days any developed country that doesn't follow these rules gets such a pr backlash that it is worth following them for that reason alone...

Unless, of course, you lose.

[LittleGrizzly]

Backlash? As in the UN sending them a letter saying they "the bad country are being bad boys" because they didn't follow rules?

Though its debatable whether it breaks the rules or not, gauntanamo is the most obvious example, if we assume it isn't against the rules imagine the even bigger pr backlash for something that is against the rules...

Unless, of course, you lose.

Well that isn't really applicable to any developed countries at the moment, they don't do unwinnable wars (well unwinnable against enemies military, occupation is a whole other problem)

I would be more supportive of rule breaking if the fight is literally life or death for our country, only if the enemy is using some tactic that is amazingly effective and against the rules that is winning them the fight, outside of that narrow definition we have no need to break the rules and it costs us very little to follow them...

IMO it gives us more benefit by following them than it costs us to ignore them...

[HoreTore]

Or perhaps the national leaders should have to fight.

Saddam, Bush and two pairs of boxing gloves. Awesome.

[LittleGrizzly]

Or perhaps the national leaders should have to fight.

It would give us a whole new set of criteria to elect people on... Putin and Russia would kick some serious ass!