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  1. #1
    Member Member Phalanx300's Avatar
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    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon's prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by Maion Maroneios View Post
    That would require large sums of coins which they didn't have, who do you think supplied them with money when they fought the Peloponnesian Wars and afterwards (before the rise of Thebai)? The Persian Empire. Now who would do that? Nobody. You see, it is all fiction, too much fiction. Sparte would not be able to become dominant, even if all odds turned against them. Just some simple calculations will show you that only Athenai could probably field double their numbers and - let's face it - it was the Homioi who where the true core of their armies. Even with those 700, they wouldn't stand a chance. Take in mind that their reputation was already shattered, plus their training was not as harsh as it used to be. Jut do some research before you post stuff like that please, or simply use your reason.

    Maion
    Cleomenes already prooved you wrong.

    And if Argos hadn't rebelled Sparta would have had the Pelopponesos. And afterwards who knows, they could very well become the Hegemon of Greece again.

    1 Man and 1 reform can change a future of a nation, look at Phillip, at Cleomenes. Without them their nations never would have become so dominant(In Cleomenes case its again).

    And I've done quite enough amateur research to know quite some things about Sparta, however you saying that Sparta never could have become dominant again is ofcourse not true.

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    Symbasileus ton Rhomaioktonon Member Maion Maroneios's Avatar
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    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon's prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by Phalanx300 View Post
    Cleomenes already prooved you wrong.

    And if Argos hadn't rebelled Sparta would have had the Pelopponesos. And afterwards who knows, they could very well become the Hegemon of Greece again.

    1 Man and 1 reform can change a future of a nation, look at Phillip, at Cleomenes. Without them their nations never would have become so dominant(In Cleomenes case its again).

    And I've done quite enough amateur research to know quite some things about Sparta, however you saying that Sparta never could have become dominant again is ofcourse not true.
    Hmmm, I kind of thought someone would fall into this trap. Sadly though, that doesn't prove that Sparte could rule Hellas over again.

    While a reform, as you very correctly stated, can make big changes, that only wouldn't assure that Sparte would again become Hegemon of Hellas. Why is that? Because Sparte's governmental system, while excellently working within the restricted boundaries of Lakonike and Messenia, was almost useless when applied to a much wider territory. This was proved after Sparte won the Peloponnesian War against Athenai. They won, though they didn't last very long, did they? It would require massive political reforms for Sparte to be able to remain dominant for a considerable amount of time, though those changes would change Sparte completely. So basically, it wouldn't be the Sparte we know anymore.

    As you see, Sparte might have dominated Hellas by force (difficult, but I agree possible), they wouldn't have been able to keep hold on their newly conquered provinces for long enough. Then again, I believe we can always leave open room for such a possibility, it's just that the chances are probably such minuscule, that you could probably just consider them as non-existing.

    Maion
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    Vicious Celt Warlord Member Celtic_Punk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon's prospects

    Well I'm still gunna do that AAR, its going to be an Alliance headed up by Sparta and Athens. We'll see where it goes though. I am planing on having a civil war between Sparta and Athens around the 200-150BC range too, and It'll end somewhere around 100BC.

    What point of view should I write in in? I was thinking a Spartan hoplite from the Civil war era, and finished by his son.
    Last edited by Celtic_Punk; 11-07-2008 at 01:48.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon's prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by Maion Maroneios View Post
    I'm not saying blustering around, just using simple reason as well as known facts.
    Stating your own highly debatable (and debated) opinions as inalienable facts = blustering.

    Also, you might note that Centurio Nixalsverdrus was able to voice his similar concerns civilly (ie. without calling everyone else pie-in-the-sky fools).

    Quote Originally Posted by Maion Maroneios View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gleemonex
    If it wasn't for a single roof tile, Epeirote fanboys would probably be calling a Roman Hegemony complete fiction. Your point?
    This has absolutely nothing to do with what I say. Unless you can compare Makedonia-Sparte with Roma-Epeiros. If that is so, I think it was a mistake to even bother to reply to your bumbling.
    Your homework for today is to read about the Butterfly effect. Extra credit if you can figure out how my statement has everything to do with what you say (and, indeed, warfare in general).

    Quote Originally Posted by Maion Maroneios View Post
    As I said before (but clearly you haven't well understood), I have stated my personal opinion.
    Followed by:

    Quote Originally Posted by Maion Maroneios View Post
    I use reason and facts, while most others just throw out bold assumptions or fictional idealistic theories.
    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Punk View Post
    Well I'm still gunna do that AAR, its going to be an Alliance headed up by Sparta and Athens. We'll see where it goes though. I am planing on having a civil war between Sparta and Athens around the 200-150BC range too, and It'll end somewhere around 100BC.

    What point of view should I write in in? I was thinking a Spartan hoplite from the Civil war era, and finished by his son.
    That should be fun. What about an emancipated helot, and his son going through the agoge?

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    Vicious Celt Warlord Member Celtic_Punk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon's prospects

    I was thinking about a spartan hoplite because he'd be writing from a first hand account. The helots would be more behind the lines... but they would have also been there I guess.
    'Who Dares WINS!' - SAS
    "The republic stands for truth and honour. For all that is noblest in our race. By truth and honour, principle and sacrifice alone will Ireland be free."-Liam Mellows


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    Member Member Phalanx300's Avatar
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    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon's prospects

    Maybe as a mercenary?

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    Vicious Celt Warlord Member Celtic_Punk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon's prospects

    No its definitely going to be a biased account. hehe.
    'Who Dares WINS!' - SAS
    "The republic stands for truth and honour. For all that is noblest in our race. By truth and honour, principle and sacrifice alone will Ireland be free."-Liam Mellows


    Who knows? If it's a enough day we may all end up Generals!"

  8. #8

    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon's prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Punk View Post
    I was thinking about a spartan hoplite because he'd be writing from a first hand account. The helots would be more behind the lines... but they would have also been there I guess.
    Well, as I'd mentionned before, there is (albeit scant) evidence that helots served verily in the Spartan phalanx as early as the Battle of Platea.

    The reason I mention helots is that you could have a helot archer or hoplite telling the first half of your AAR, with his fully-Spartan son telling the latter half. Just a thought though.

    -Glee
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    Vicious Celt Warlord Member Celtic_Punk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon's prospects

    I'm going to start the AAR once I finish a basic first draft of what i want it to be like, maybe a week depends on work.
    'Who Dares WINS!' - SAS
    "The republic stands for truth and honour. For all that is noblest in our race. By truth and honour, principle and sacrifice alone will Ireland be free."-Liam Mellows


    Who knows? If it's a enough day we may all end up Generals!"

  10. #10
    Symbasileus ton Rhomaioktonon Member Maion Maroneios's Avatar
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    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon's prospects

    [QUOTE=Gleemonex;2056965]Stating your own highly debatable (and debated) opinions as inalienable facts = blustering.
    Where did I exactly state that my opinions are inalienable facts? Look at my replies, I have mentioned again and again that I believe there is a possibility that Sparte could reach such heights anew. Meaning, I agree with everyone else, but just using my statements I considerably decrease that number. So basically that means that you are the one who's blustering here, not me. You're trying to show you're something, debating with me about a topic I already agreed with the rest, but in truth you aren't getting to anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gleemonex View Post
    Also, you might note that Centurio Nixalsverdrus was able to voice his similar concerns civilly (ie. without calling everyone else pie-in-the-sky fools).
    Centurio Nixalsverdrus might do whatever he wishes and that I respect. I never called anyone a fool, mind you, I just want people to start doing some reading/research about Sparte instead of watching movies like 300 for a change. Same goes for you, it seems, or you wouldn't be on fire now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gleemonex View Post
    Your homework for today is to read about the Butterfly effect. Extra credit if you can figure out how my statement has everything to do with what you say (and, indeed, warfare in general).
    Your homework for today are the following:
    1) Read my previous replies over and over again until you fully understand exactly what I say, for you truly seem to have no idea.
    2) Do some research about the "butterfly effect" and I mean some real one. Maybe then you will understand that it is a theory, not a proven fact.

    Maion
    ~Maion

  11. #11
    Member Member Phalanx300's Avatar
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    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon's prospects

    Quote Originally Posted by Maion Maroneios View Post
    I never called anyone a fool, mind you, I just want people to start doing some reading/research about Sparte instead of watching movies like 300 for a change.

    And what makes you think that people haven't done some research on them? If they are here that means they probably play EB and like historical accuracy, which means they probably know more about Sparte to then your average 300 steriotype.

  12. #12
    Symbasileus ton Rhomaioktonon Member Maion Maroneios's Avatar
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    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon's prospects

    Because of what they state. I agree that most know at least something about Spartan history (aexcluding wikipedia sources), but they just are heavily influenced by the American propaganda of today.

    Maion
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  13. #13
    Member Member Phalanx300's Avatar
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    Default Re: Koinon Hellenon's prospects

    Hmmm, I kind of thought someone would fall into this trap. Sadly though, that doesn't prove that Sparte could rule Hellas over again.
    I see it differently, if Sparte could have gained control over the Peloponessos, and then beated the Macedonians in a pitched battle or a few, they would probably gain control over Hellas, it would be hard but not impossible. And as far as I know about Cleomenes he was quite a good tactician.

    While a reform, as you very correctly stated, can make big changes, that only wouldn't assure that Sparte would again become Hegemon of Hellas. Why is that? Because Sparte's governmental system, while excellently working within the restricted boundaries of Lakonike and Messenia, was almost useless when applied to a much wider territory.This was proved after Sparte won the Peloponnesian War against Athenai. They won, though they didn't last very long, did they? It would require massive political reforms for Sparte to be able to remain dominant for a considerable amount of time, though those changes would change Sparte completely. So basically, it wouldn't be the Sparte we know anymore.
    I don't really agree with that, it could very well be possible for Sparta to control Hellas. Even with their govermental system. They would probably not expand beyond Hellas, and not forming a new Roman empire, but becoming the hegemon of Hellas again was certainly possible.

    As you see, Sparte might have dominated Hellas by force (difficult, but I agree possible), they wouldn't have been able to keep hold on their newly conquered provinces for long enough. Then again, I believe we can always leave open room for such a possibility, it's just that the chances are probably such minuscule, that you could probably just consider them as non-existing.
    I also don't think that the chances are that small that it becomes non possible, if history has shown us anything then it is that anything is possible, the same with holding onto it after dominating Hellas. At that time they would be quite wealthy again, their numbers would be increasing, though not that noticable in such a short period(and the other poleis also didn't knew about the real number of Spartiatai).

    If they would play their cards right they could very well maintain such a state for a while.

    Though yea, all of it is somewhat unlikely, yet not impossible.


    Anyways, I would like such a AAR CelticPunk!
    Last edited by Phalanx300; 11-07-2008 at 02:02.

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