Koinon Hellenon's prospects

[Laevex]

I am currently playing a KH campaign and I have been reading a little at my university library about the anti-Macedon league which it represents.

Obviously in history, the KH failed to repel Antigonos' domination of Greece but in EB it is perfectly likely that the player can succeed in this respect. It has always seemed to me, however, that once Makedonia has been defeated (in my campaign I left them with just the one province of Makedonia and made peace) there is not a lot of point in the KH being a faction. Wouldn't the Greek cities have simply returned to governing themselves seperately once the Macedonian threat had been neutralised? I can't imagine Athenians, Corinthians, Aitolians and Thessalians all simply accepting a Spartan Hegemon for example.

I like to roleplay my campaigns and I'm a bit stuck to be honest. I have conquered most of the Aegean, as Makedonia went west once I had liberated their Greek holdings, but I don't feel like the Koinon would really be the kind of faction to aggressively expand.

How can this be roleplayed? Should I rename the Koinon Hellenon? Just defend my holdings (annoyingly both the Seles and the Ptolies are on my back sending stacks to my Anatolian cities)?

[Maion Maroneios]

As for your first question, it is true that most likely they would have split apart gain after securing their freedom and autonomy. This means that you could ''chose'' one polis like Athenai alomg with some others like Chalkis and Thermon and build up an Athenian Empire. After that, you could (after gifting all other provinces to another faction which you can rename and/or recolor) capture every settlement anew under leadership of the polis you chose and rename your faction into ''Athenaike Symmachia'' (Athenian Alliance) or ''Athenaike Hegemonia'' (Athenian Hegemony) for Athenai. For Sparte (being oligarchic), it would be more something like ''Koinon Lakedaimonion'' (League of the Lacedaemonians) or ''Lakedaimoniake Hegemonia'' (Lacedaemonian Hegemony). You could also edit the EDB text in order to allow type1 governments to be built anywhere, rp your guys (Spartans) forcing other poleis to accept their governing system.

Maion

[Tyrfingr]

The greek city states would accept a spartan hegemon as long as there was an imminent threat to the freedom and security of all of Greece. When there is no threat, the alliance would probably fall apart pretty fast.

I haven't played as KH that much, so I'm not familiar with the various ethnic traits but one idea for roleplaying is that you let your cities be governed only by family members with the correct traits, i.e only spartans in Sparta, rhodesians on Rhodes etc...

[Maion Maroneios]

The greek city states would accept a spartan hegemon as long as there was an imminent threat to the freedom and security of all of Greece. When there is no threat, the alliance would probably fall apart pretty fast.

I highly doubt that any major Hellenic polis would accept Spartan hegemony with Sparte having something like 700 Homioi (seriously, look it up). Remember, Hellenistic era Sparte is nothing compared to the might of Sparte during the Classical one. Then, other poleis feared and respected her, at EB's timeframe they did neither.

Maion

[keravnos]

As for Koinon Hellenon, the challenge is different. How to accurately portray the evershifting realities of that time and place, with Koinon (League) pitted against Koinon, and many of those joining together to form a "Sympoliteia" (League of leagues), which ruled supreme in the region until both Achaian and Aitolian leagues fell to the Romani war machine. Forming Koinon Hellenon will be tough, as it was historically. Even as the player starts as commanding the Chremonidean league, the stated goal would be the formation of the Koinon Hellenon (League of all Greeks), as was done by Antigonos Doson, a Makedonian King, which comprised Epirotes, Phokians, Boiotians, Akarnanians, Thessalians, Achaians and Makedones in 224 BCE. Just not from the Makedonian side.

In 224 a Hellenic alliance was formed, which had all Greeks as members. Had it lasted it could fight the Romani unified. I understand you don't really believe that the Greeks could stay unified, but there was a long and bitter struggle to make that happen. It started from the Persian wars, and ended up in Phillip, who was selected by those who wanted the "Pan-hellenic" idea to be realised (the joining of Greeks in one state). Before Phillip, Jason of Pherrai, Tagos(leader) of Thessaly had been chosen but he was murdered, most probably by an Achaimenid Persian agent (although some of the other Thessalians could very well be responsible). Sophists like Gorgias were the agents of this movement. (Gorgias was the tutor of Jason of Pherrai). While not exactly a secret organisation, those who believed in a common state for all Greeks existed. They were the first to welcome Phillipos in Southern Greece, and the reason why S. Greece stayed unified during Alexanders' reign. After his death it all fell apart, mainly because nobody was a single heir to his Empire.

In EB 2 KH will start out as Chremonideian league, but its target will be to become a Panhellenic alliance, and in the end a Hellenic state. It will be HARD mind you but that is what it should be. Ancient Greeks thought it easier to rule a Kingdom than a polis.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

When I roleplay Koinon Hellenon, I operate as a unified faction until the threat from Macedon is defeated.

After that I simulate the interests of the various cities by making economy-building the #1 priority, rather than territorial expansion. And when I do expand, I do so in all directions, quite randomly. One army might go to Spain to conquer Arse, another one to Gaul to conquer Massilia, another one to the Crimea to conquer the two cities there, and so on. Usually only after the Elutheroi garrison has been destroyed by some other faction, so I have a reason to go to war.

This means my military is always divided up into small chunks here and there, not centralised as one or two big full stacks like other factions might do. That only happens when there's a huge threat to Greece.

I also rely on hiring mercenaries as the preferred method of raising troops - my Greek city populations mostly prefer making money to fighting.

[Lovejoy]

After Mac is defeated I return my faction leaders to there cities and I start treating Sparta(and all lvl1 gov. ctites) as one faction, and Rhodes and Athean as one faction. I usually expand west with my sparta faction and east with my Athean/Rhodes faction.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

This is one of the main reasons I can't play factions like KH. Once their immediate goal is completed, I have a hard time roleplaying further.

[desert]

I roleplayed it as the great Spartan king Areus keeping the Koinon in a very loose affiliation in the name of defeating the Thracians and saving the Bosphoric colonies from marauding Skythians. Then I had a scheming Athenian politician, son of Chremonides, declare a new alliance in the style of the Delian League, acting as a modern Perikles and starting a second Athenian Golden Age.

I forgot my rationalization for why he would succeed, it was a long time ago. But I'm pretty sure it was sound.

[Celtic_Punk]

I have a Spartan Hedgemony. I also like to roleplay my campaigns somewhat, I plan to have a large civil war around 200BC.
What ive done is, well There are many Hellenic colonies possibly willing to join the League. they are governed by Tyrants of the evil Variety lol, therefore As a public service I liberate them, I've only done this with Pergamon though, I plan to do it with Syracuse and Massalia if my Alliance with Rome does not hold up. since i was allied with ptolemy I joined the Successor wars in Syria. I took Antioch with a Spartan army (5 Spartan Hoplites, 4 levies, 2 Hippies, one General of the Spartan Variety) And held it for a long time, Ptolemy attacked me so now ive got ample enemies to keep the Spartans on the top. THE NEW AGE OF SPARTA BECKONS! I should try to write a Spartan AAR maybe... Would anyone be interested in one?

[SwissBarbar]

yes

[Dodge_272]

Yes, very much so.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

No.

[Maion Maroneios]

Well... Honestly no. I prefer to read at least semi-fictional AARs, Sparte becoming a great power is just too fictional if you ask me.

Maion

[Celtic_Punk]

id dint mean like rule what became the roman empire, i just mean the hella's

[Maion Maroneios]

In any case it would be extremely unlikely for a Sparte with approximately 700 homioi to re-conquer Hellas, believe me Though you could try it, you know.

Maion

[Dutchhoplite]

A reversed Sellasia could be interesting

[Timoleon]

In any case it would be extremely unlikely for a Sparte with approximately 700 homioi to re-conquer Hellas, believe me

If Sparta boosted their numbers by giving full political rights (and maybe conquered land) to Perioikoi or Neodamodeis (freed slaves) then this wouldn't be that unlikely.

[Maion Maroneios]

If Sparta boosted their numbers by giving full political rights (and maybe conquered land) to Perioikoi or Neodamodeis (freed slaves) then this wouldn't be that unlikely.

If my grandmother had balls, she would be my grandfather. And believe me that would be more likely for that to happen that what you just said. Plus, Perioikoi and Neodamodeis wheren not even close to the caliber of the Homioi, in terms of ability in warfare which was, after all, in the very genes of the Spartiatai after so many generations of fighters. I have studied Spartan history, I know how the people thought and how they lived, so believe me something like what you said would never, even happened, even if the Sparte would seem to have no other option.

Maion

P.S.: Don't take what I first said personal, it's a saying we have here in Greece

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

If they had only 700 homoioi (sp), they couldn't even field one unit of Spartiates Hoplitai. One unit has 120 or 160 men, when we think of the roleplay-factor, this would be 1200 or 1600. Also, a roleplay-factor of 10 doesn't fit with most Roman armies. Considering a legion had about 5500 men, it'd only consist of 550 men in game, which is 3,5 units only. This has become quite a problem for me lately.

[Phalanx300]

Even with 700 Spartiatai they could very well become dominant, maybe not with armies filled with Spartans but with Periokoi and Mercenary armies led by a few Spartans(as they did when their number was low).

[Celtic_Punk]

my point exactly

[Maion Maroneios]

Even with 700 Spartiatai they could very well become dominant, maybe not with armies filled with Spartans but with Periokoi and Mercenary armies led by a few Spartans(as they did when their number was low).

That would require large sums of coins which they didn't have, who do you think supplied them with money when they fought the Peloponnesian Wars and afterwards (before the rise of Thebai)? The Persian Empire. Now who would do that? Nobody. You see, it is all fiction, too much fiction. Sparte would not be able to become dominant, even if all odds turned against them. Just some simple calculations will show you that only Athenai could probably field double their numbers and - let's face it - it was the Homioi who where the true core of their armies. Even with those 700, they wouldn't stand a chance. Take in mind that their reputation was already shattered, plus their training was not as harsh as it used to be. Jut do some research before you post stuff like that please, or simply use your reason.

Maion

[Gleemonex]

If my grandmother had balls, she would be my grandfather.

Very funny ;) An equivalent North American (probably from the USA) expression: If a frog had wings, it wouldn't bump its ass when it hops.

Plus, Perioikoi and Neodamodeis wheren not even close to the caliber of the Homioi, in terms of ability in warfare which was, after all, in the very genes of the Spartiatai after so many generations of fighters.

Then why are there numerous and variegated instances of Helots -- being below even Perioikoi and Neadamodeis -- serving as Spartan hoplites?

That would require large sums of coins which they didn't have, who do you think supplied them with money [...] ?

The EB Script did. It's a game, people. Play it, enjoy it, read AARs you like, don't read AARs you don't. But you're wasting your breath if you're going to tell people how to NOT enjoy themselves.

And I think a Spartan Hegemony AAR would be an interesting read.

-Glee

[Celtic_Punk]

It would be possible if they convinced other cities to back them militarily and economically. If Makedon suffered huge military blunders and sparta took advantage, they could have taken Makedons place in the Hellas

[Dutchhoplite]

I don't think it's impossible that they could have stopped the Macedonians. A Spartan empire is a complete different discussion.
Just be another Cleomenes or Nabis and give those Macedonians hell

[Maion Maroneios]

I'm kind of geting tired with this discussion, seeing too many of you are living in a world of dreams and still confuse the Classical with the Hellenistic eras.

First of all, I said I don't very much enjoy fiction AARs, stating why I believe (according to what historically the state of Sparte at the time was) such a plot (Spartan Hegemony) would be complete fiction.

Secondly, where do you base all of your statements that it could be possible for Sparte to conquer Hellas, defeat the Makedonians or whatever you say? I mean, come on, we might all like Sparte and admire them and their glorious past, but let's be rational. Even on her worst days, Makedonia creamed Sparte and could, in numerous occassions, have reduced her to rubble, like during the siege of Megalopolis. I mean, they didn't even reform their military until it was too late. They had not sufficient funds to do anything, plus they lacked the manpower that made Sparte what she was, the Homioi.

Everything revolved around them, their whole society and way of living. They would have to change a history of some hundreds of years in order to have stood any chance at that time, that's a fact.

Maion

[Gleemonex]

I'm kind of geting tired with this discussion, seeing too many of you are living in a world of dreams and still confuse the Classical with the Hellenistic eras.

You're in no position to condescend to anyone in this thread. Everything you've said here is absolutist, inflexible bluster. The only reason I'm responding to your troll is that I don't want you to walk away thinking you're right, lest you feel the urge to act up like this again.

First of all, I said I don't very much enjoy fiction AARs, stating why I believe (according to what historically the state of Sparte at the time was) such a plot (Spartan Hegemony) would be complete fiction.

If it wasn't for a single roof tile, Epeirote fanboys would probably be calling a Roman Hegemony complete fiction. Your point?

They would have to change a history of some hundreds of years in order to have stood any chance at that time, that's a fact.

Um.... everyone who plays EB has to change a history of some 2280 years in order to enjoy themselves. They don't seem to have much trouble with it. What's your excuse?

-Glee

[Phalanx300]

That would require large sums of coins which they didn't have, who do you think supplied them with money when they fought the Peloponnesian Wars and afterwards (before the rise of Thebai)? The Persian Empire. Now who would do that? Nobody. You see, it is all fiction, too much fiction. Sparte would not be able to become dominant, even if all odds turned against them. Just some simple calculations will show you that only Athenai could probably field double their numbers and - let's face it - it was the Homioi who where the true core of their armies. Even with those 700, they wouldn't stand a chance. Take in mind that their reputation was already shattered, plus their training was not as harsh as it used to be. Jut do some research before you post stuff like that please, or simply use your reason.

Maion

Cleomenes already prooved you wrong.

And if Argos hadn't rebelled Sparta would have had the Pelopponesos. And afterwards who knows, they could very well become the Hegemon of Greece again.

1 Man and 1 reform can change a future of a nation, look at Phillip, at Cleomenes. Without them their nations never would have become so dominant(In Cleomenes case its again).

And I've done quite enough amateur research to know quite some things about Sparta, however you saying that Sparta never could have become dominant again is ofcourse not true.

[Dutchhoplite]

Hmm, throwing around facts are we??

Fact is that that the Spartan "new model army" under Cleomenes III performed quite well. Fact is that is Macedonian/Allied army was extremely reluctant to attack the smaller Spartan army. Fact is that the rebellion in Argos forced the Spartan army to retreat and not the Macedonian army.

There are enough interesting "what ifs".