On the United Nations and the USA's role in foreign policy.

Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi

I don't think what our "enemies" are doing in terms of interrogation, human rights, pollution regulations or anything else should be our yardstick for our own country. Especially if you want us to be "the best."

That's the problem with your argument Strike.... you want the U.S. to be the best, but doing things like yanking out of proliferation and pollution treaties is counterproductive. The future is not in burning more coal and building a lot more nukes. The future is in new tech and sciences and alternative energy and education. If simply having the biggest stockpile of weapons and the most lucrative free market economy would alone make us the best then we've been the best for decades and are not being seriously challenged (yet), so I fail to see why pulling out of these treaties was necessary with that goal in mind.

Once agian Im not saying lowering our stockpile or cleaning our air are bad things. What I am saying is that we should do these things on our own terms.

Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Once agian Im not saying lowering our stockpile or cleaning our air are bad things. What I am saying is that we should do these things on our own terms.

Every single nation shares the same sky, Strike. America cleaning up or reducing its air pollutants doesn't matter if India and China just pick up the slack and make up whatever we're cutting. That's the point of these useless treaties.

Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi

Every single nation shares the same sky, Strike. America cleaning up or reducing its air pollutants doesn't matter if India and China just pick up the slack and make up whatever we're cutting. That's the point of these useless treaties.

China and Indias business is theres. Do you really honestly believe China holds true to these? Besides let the Euros force these countries to sign. America should be out of all this entanglement

Besides let the Euros force these countries to sign. America should be out of all this entanglement

You think europe can convince these countries alone, as you said these countrys are nothing if self interested, the developed world needs a united front if there is any hope to convince them to go along with it, if america does its own thing china will see no reason to listen to the euro's and will do its own thing like america...

If on the other hand pressure is brought to bear on china from america, euro's and other developed countrys they will be convinced to agree to these treaties because it will be in thier self interest...

Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly

Besides let the Euros force these countries to sign. America should be out of all this entanglement

You think europe can convince these countries alone, as you said these countrys are nothing if self interested, the developed world needs a united front if there is any hope to convince them to go along with it, if america does its own thing china will see no reason to listen to the euro's and will do its own thing like america...

If on the other hand pressure is brought to bear on china from america, euro's and other developed countrys they will be convinced to agree to these treaties because it will be in thier self interest...

China signs these things in name only. Not to mention I wouldn't mind pressuring China but we dont have to sign some fancy treaty to do that. America should control its own destiny.

Originally Posted by Strike For The South

China signs these things in name only. Not to mention I wouldn't mind pressuring China but we dont have to sign some fancy treaty to do that. America should control its own destiny.

How is America deciding to, along with many other nations, decrease pollution, and then doing it... giving up control of its destiny?

Do you think Kyoto was "demanded" upon the U.S. by other nations?

Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi

How is America deciding to, along with many other nations, decrease pollution, and then doing it... giving up control of its destiny?

Do you think Kyoto was "demanded" upon the U.S. by other nations?

No however signing these things only entangles us further. Look at the Georgia-Russia situation we end up looking like bumbling hypocrites. You are only looking at one issue. There is a larger idea behind this.

It would just be pointless individual countries going thier own way, america could have some of the best enviromental policys in the world and china and india would wipe them out in no time, besides do you want them to have an economic advantadge or would you rather the world pressured them into agreeing to international treaties to give us a level playing field...

Not to mention I wouldn't mind pressuring China but we dont have to sign some fancy treaty to do that.

well its one of the best ways to do it, treaties contain obligations which are damaging to squirm out of, if these countries are as self interested as you say (they are) then simple verbal promises are definetly not enough, things need to be down on paper with the least possible wiggle room...

Edit:

Look at the Georgia-Russia situation we end up looking like bumbling hypocrites. You are only looking at one issue. There is a larger idea behind this.

The simple answer is to be consistently on the right side of the argument, if you hold yourself to a higher moral standing all these self serving powers look even worse in comparison...

Originally Posted by Strike For The South

China and Indias business is theres. Do you really honestly believe China holds true to these? Besides let the Euros force these countries to sign. America should be out of all this entanglement

TBH, if the U.S.A did create for itself a truly great enviromentl plan, I would not care if it kept it to itself. It would be such a leap foreward.

Originally Posted by Strike For The South

China and Indias business is theres. Do you really honestly believe China holds true to these? Besides let the Euros force these countries to sign. America should be out of all this entanglement

No it's not, not when a very high percentage of CA's air pollution is blown around the pacific rim, past Alaska, down into CA, and gets trapped there.

This is an international problem Strike. Thinking like early 20th century fiefdoms is over, and should stay over.

Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi

No it's not, not when a very high percentage of CA's air pollution is blown around the pacific rim, past Alaska, down into CA, and gets trapped there.

This is an international problem Strike. Thinking like early 20th century fiefdoms is over, and should stay over.

America (if it wants to) can take care of its own air problem. We have no right to force other countries to do the same.