History background of Armenian units?

[AqD]

Hello I come to seek for help again!

Anyone know about the history background for these units:

1. Kartvelebi Dashna-Mebrdzolebi (Georgian Swordsmen)
2. Nakhararakan Tiknapah (Armenian Noble Infantry). Are they related to the Kentronakan guard?
3. Mardig Sooseramartik (Armenian Medium Infantry): How are they armed exactly (long or short swords, javelins or pila?) and when did they start being used?
4. Were most of their cataphracts armed with both bow and lance? Or the cataphract archers were rather a small group of special units introduced from parthians?

[AqD]

ohhh 110+ views but nobody could answer me....

[Foot]

We cannot talk in specificities with Armenia during this time-period. We can only make rough guesses based on outside commentry. We know that the Armenians were predominantly influenced by Iranian, and particularly Medean dress customs. We also know that in Georgia the highland folk were heavily influenced by steppe dress customs. We know that culturally and militarily they were heavily influenced by Iranian traditions and, later, Parthian traditions. There was also some hellenic influence from the Black Sea, and the Galatians had spread the Thureos throughout Anatolia and the east. In EBII we will better be able to represent these influences for each unit with both eastern and western military equipment being shown in each unit (where suitable).

1. Based on Thureophoroi + Peltastai traditions, these are also heavily influenced by Steppe culture.
2. These were probably based upon both the Greek Hoplite influences as well as the Achaemenid military traditions.
3. Again these represent the confluence of both Thureophoroi and Peltastai traditions as well as Iranian military traditions.
4. Its difficult to say. Early cavalry would have been heavily influenced by late Achaemenid cavalry, but there would have also been some steppe influence. It should be noted that most cataphracts would have been armed with a bow, a lance and a sword, axe or mace. As we cannot have units with three weapons we had to split them into two. The late Armenian cataphracts would have likely followed the Parthians in this tradition. A mix of both Cataphract archers and plain Cataphracts is the best way of representing this.

Note that during and after the collapse of Tigranes II's Empire he reformed the military to be better equipped for light and fast ambush tactics instead of meeting full-scale battles. How long this lasted is not said.

Foot

[MeinPanzer]

I understand the evidence for thureophoroi infantry, but I am curious what the reasoning was behind having a specific swordsmen thureophoros unit, and whether that unit will be included in EBII.

[paullus]

Not sure, as they long preceded my tenure and I've not worked on Armenia (ie, I'm not really the guy to answer this), but I've the impression they're meant to form a sort of parallel to Roman legionaries, showing a type of unit with simple shortswords derived from Hellenic and Persian equipment and combat traditions. I know you've done work in this area MP, so you may well know the frequency of sword finds in the Caucasus.

An additional note:
There will very likely be an additional and exciting thureos-equipped unit for late-game Hayasdan. MP, you can probably guess it, but I'd rather you didn't spoil the surprise.

[MeinPanzer]

Not sure, as they long preceded my tenure and I've not worked on Armenia (ie, I'm not really the guy to answer this), but I've the impression they're meant to form a sort of parallel to Roman legionaries, showing a type of unit with simple shortswords derived from Hellenic and Persian equipment and combat traditions. I know you've done work in this area MP, so you may well know the frequency of sword finds in the Caucasus.

Swords aren't all that unusual in finds in an around Georgia (for which we have fairly plentiful information, compared to the unfortunately sparse finds from Armenia), but they have a fairly peculiar chronological and geographical distribution. The akinakes is found down until around the early 4th c. BC all along the Caucasus mountains (owing to the steppe influence from the north). From the 4th-3rd c. BC, the only swords found are the usually larger "Sindo-Maeotian" style, which is very simple in shape (no guard, straight-edged blade, very simple pommel) and which is found only in the northwest (i.e. modern Abkhazia, in the richer coastal cities of Colchis). Very rich burials also include kopides, but these disappear by the beginning of the EB timeframe, while a later, 1st c. BC short sword found in the palace at Dedoplis Gora is of a vague form that I am unable to identify with any parallels.

The one thing that is desperately lacking form all Armenian and Caucasian units right now are axes. It's evident from finds throughout Colchis, Iberia, Albania, and Armenia that the panoply par excellence was spear or javelins and axe, most likely with a thureos. I think you would be well served to replace the Georgian Swordsmen unit with an axemen unit of some kind.

An additional note:
There will very likely be an additional and exciting thureos-equipped unit for late-game Hayasdan. MP, you can probably guess it, but I'd rather you didn't spoil the surprise.

I'm sure it will be a popular addition to the roster and should look great in EBII.

[Sarcasm]

There will very likely be an additional and exciting thureos-equipped unit for late-game Hayasdan. MP, you can probably guess it, but I'd rather you didn't spoil the surprise.

Dude, what? I don't know that one

[Sarkiss]

i agree with Artavazd, we should not link Urartian gear with later Armenian directly, but merely see it as an original that along with other sources and trends influenced the development of Armenian gear. it would be illogical to dismiss these Urartian artifacts all together for there is an evidence for strong influence of Urartian civilization and institutions over Armenia.
Urartian gear along with that of steppes, Hellenic, and Medo-Iranian should be taken into consideration when one is attempting such a hard task as reconstructing third century's Armenian weapons and armor.

Note that during and after the collapse of Tigranes II's Empire he reformed the military to be better equipped for light and fast ambush tactics instead of meeting full-scale battles. How long this lasted is not said.

Foot

could you please point me in the right direction regarding this reform? all i could find so far is a reform that Mithridates helped with, as mentioned by Appian, reforming heavy infantry to Roman fashion after defeat at Tigranokert.