History background of Armenian units?

[AqD]

Hello I come to seek for help again!

Anyone know about the history background for these units:

1. Kartvelebi Dashna-Mebrdzolebi (Georgian Swordsmen)
2. Nakhararakan Tiknapah (Armenian Noble Infantry). Are they related to the Kentronakan guard?
3. Mardig Sooseramartik (Armenian Medium Infantry): How are they armed exactly (long or short swords, javelins or pila?) and when did they start being used?
4. Were most of their cataphracts armed with both bow and lance? Or the cataphract archers were rather a small group of special units introduced from parthians?

[AqD]

ohhh 110+ views but nobody could answer me....

[Foot]

We cannot talk in specificities with Armenia during this time-period. We can only make rough guesses based on outside commentry. We know that the Armenians were predominantly influenced by Iranian, and particularly Medean dress customs. We also know that in Georgia the highland folk were heavily influenced by steppe dress customs. We know that culturally and militarily they were heavily influenced by Iranian traditions and, later, Parthian traditions. There was also some hellenic influence from the Black Sea, and the Galatians had spread the Thureos throughout Anatolia and the east. In EBII we will better be able to represent these influences for each unit with both eastern and western military equipment being shown in each unit (where suitable).

1. Based on Thureophoroi + Peltastai traditions, these are also heavily influenced by Steppe culture.
2. These were probably based upon both the Greek Hoplite influences as well as the Achaemenid military traditions.
3. Again these represent the confluence of both Thureophoroi and Peltastai traditions as well as Iranian military traditions.
4. Its difficult to say. Early cavalry would have been heavily influenced by late Achaemenid cavalry, but there would have also been some steppe influence. It should be noted that most cataphracts would have been armed with a bow, a lance and a sword, axe or mace. As we cannot have units with three weapons we had to split them into two. The late Armenian cataphracts would have likely followed the Parthians in this tradition. A mix of both Cataphract archers and plain Cataphracts is the best way of representing this.

Note that during and after the collapse of Tigranes II's Empire he reformed the military to be better equipped for light and fast ambush tactics instead of meeting full-scale battles. How long this lasted is not said.

Foot

[MeinPanzer]

I understand the evidence for thureophoroi infantry, but I am curious what the reasoning was behind having a specific swordsmen thureophoros unit, and whether that unit will be included in EBII.

[paullus]

Not sure, as they long preceded my tenure and I've not worked on Armenia (ie, I'm not really the guy to answer this), but I've the impression they're meant to form a sort of parallel to Roman legionaries, showing a type of unit with simple shortswords derived from Hellenic and Persian equipment and combat traditions. I know you've done work in this area MP, so you may well know the frequency of sword finds in the Caucasus.

An additional note:
There will very likely be an additional and exciting thureos-equipped unit for late-game Hayasdan. MP, you can probably guess it, but I'd rather you didn't spoil the surprise.

[MeinPanzer]

Not sure, as they long preceded my tenure and I've not worked on Armenia (ie, I'm not really the guy to answer this), but I've the impression they're meant to form a sort of parallel to Roman legionaries, showing a type of unit with simple shortswords derived from Hellenic and Persian equipment and combat traditions. I know you've done work in this area MP, so you may well know the frequency of sword finds in the Caucasus.

Swords aren't all that unusual in finds in an around Georgia (for which we have fairly plentiful information, compared to the unfortunately sparse finds from Armenia), but they have a fairly peculiar chronological and geographical distribution. The akinakes is found down until around the early 4th c. BC all along the Caucasus mountains (owing to the steppe influence from the north). From the 4th-3rd c. BC, the only swords found are the usually larger "Sindo-Maeotian" style, which is very simple in shape (no guard, straight-edged blade, very simple pommel) and which is found only in the northwest (i.e. modern Abkhazia, in the richer coastal cities of Colchis). Very rich burials also include kopides, but these disappear by the beginning of the EB timeframe, while a later, 1st c. BC short sword found in the palace at Dedoplis Gora is of a vague form that I am unable to identify with any parallels.

The one thing that is desperately lacking form all Armenian and Caucasian units right now are axes. It's evident from finds throughout Colchis, Iberia, Albania, and Armenia that the panoply par excellence was spear or javelins and axe, most likely with a thureos. I think you would be well served to replace the Georgian Swordsmen unit with an axemen unit of some kind.

An additional note:
There will very likely be an additional and exciting thureos-equipped unit for late-game Hayasdan. MP, you can probably guess it, but I'd rather you didn't spoil the surprise.

I'm sure it will be a popular addition to the roster and should look great in EBII.

[Foot]

The reason the georgian unit had a sword was because of model sharing. Personally I would have preferred a longer sword and/or axe for both units, but I had only just joined when the armenian version was concepted. You can expect far more variety in EBII.

Foot

[Celtic_Punk]

that is why I am buying M2TW for the sole purpose of playing EBII :)

[Sarcasm]

There will very likely be an additional and exciting thureos-equipped unit for late-game Hayasdan. MP, you can probably guess it, but I'd rather you didn't spoil the surprise.

Dude, what? I don't know that one

[artavazd]

There was also the native influence from the Urartian kingdom of Armenia.


Helmet

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...menia_1254.jpg
[
B]Shield:[/B]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...dSarduri02.jpg

Armor:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...an_Armor_2.jpg


Quiver:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...erVertical.jpg

[MeinPanzer]

There was also the native influence from the Urartian kingdom of Armenia.


Helmet

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...menia_1254.jpg
[
B]Shield:[/B]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...dSarduri02.jpg

Armor:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...an_Armor_2.jpg


Quiver:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...erVertical.jpg

The Urartian kingdom predates the EB timeframe by well over three centuries, and so any equipment from that time period is irrelevant to reconstructions during the EB timeframe.

[Sarkiss]

The Urartian kingdom predates the EB timeframe by well over three centuries, and so any equipment from that time period is irrelevant to reconstructions during the EB timeframe.

it is, nevertheless, likely to influence later Armenians.
with arrival of new tribes circa VI BC Urartians did not just perish, but most, if not all, remained within their original inhabit and contributed over the centuries to fusion of new and old tradition into one.

according to Gabriel Soultanian's "The Pre-History of the Armenians" the Urartian enclave encircled on all sides by proto-Armenians had their language fading away in line with their identity.

the eclipse of Urartian language was the reason for Urartu, as a separate ethnic unit, to die a natural death; but even that death could not negate the legacy with which Urartu had endowed the hybrid nation of the Armenians, who are while physiognomically of Caucasian type, yet speak an Indo-European dialect.

[artavazd]

The Urartian kingdom predates the EB timeframe by well over three centuries, and so any equipment from that time period is irrelevant to reconstructions during the EB timeframe.

You are correct that the time period predates the EB timeframe by well over three centuries, but the traditions did continue. For example one of the most characteristic symbol of the Armenian military in the time frame of EB ( and even into the middle ages) would be the conical helmet. This type of helmet has been around since the time of the Urartu kingdom or even before. The other images of the scale armor, and the large round shield are also found in Armenia during EB's timeframe. The tradition of cavalry in Armenia, even though influenced by the Parthians in EB's timeframe, has an older tradition found in the kingdom of Urartu.

[MeinPanzer]

it is, nevertheless, likely to influence later Armenians.
with arrival of new tribes circa VI BC Urartians did not just perish, but most, if not all, remained within their original inhabit and contributed over the centuries to fusion of new and old tradition into one.

according to Gabriel Soultanian's "The Pre-History of the Armenians" the Urartian enclave encircled on all sides by proto-Armenians had their language fading away in line with their identity.

Cultural heritage does not necessarily reflect military equipment. The equipment of the Caucasus and Armenia changed, like in most other areas of the old world, from the Urartian era to the EB timeframe quite drastically.

You are correct that the time period predates the EB timeframe by well over three centuries, but the traditions did continue. For example one of the most characteristic symbol of the Armenian military in the time frame of EB ( and even into the middle ages) would be the conical helmet. This type of helmet has been around since the time of the Urartu kingdom or even before. The other images of the scale armor, and the large round shield are also found in Armenia during EB's timeframe.

Could you provide some evidence for conical helmets and round shields of the Urartian type being used in Armenia during this time period?

Stating that Urartian military equipment can be used to recreate units from the EB timeframe is like stating that Archaic Greek equipment can be used to recreate Greek units. Later types may have derived from this, but they changed quite drastically.

The tradition of cavalry in Armenia, even though influenced by the Parthians in EB's timeframe, has an older tradition found in the kingdom of Urartu.

That may be, but that is no reason to use Urartian-era arms and armour as evidence for the EB timeframe.

[Foot]

Don't worry, that is certainly not where we will be drawing our evidence from. The Armenian Plateau had seen both the spread of Iranian and Hellenic culture since that time, so any influence from Urartu would need to be seen through those eyes. As it is I really don't see any place for Urartean artifacts in the conception of Caucasian units.

Foot

[artavazd]

This is the helmet I am talking about. This type of helmet is found in Armenia during EB's timeframe. Infact there are units in the game which have this helmet. (aznvakan tiknapah, and Aznvakan Aspet)

I think we are misunderstanding eachother. I do not mean to say that the Military gear of the Urartian period should be the military gear in EB's timeframe. I am merely saying that there were some traditions that did carry over such as the above helmet, and the use of scale armor.

[Sarkiss]

i agree with Artavazd, we should not link Urartian gear with later Armenian directly, but merely see it as an original that along with other sources and trends influenced the development of Armenian gear. it would be illogical to dismiss these Urartian artifacts all together for there is an evidence for strong influence of Urartian civilization and institutions over Armenia.
Urartian gear along with that of steppes, Hellenic, and Medo-Iranian should be taken into consideration when one is attempting such a hard task as reconstructing third century's Armenian weapons and armor.

Note that during and after the collapse of Tigranes II's Empire he reformed the military to be better equipped for light and fast ambush tactics instead of meeting full-scale battles. How long this lasted is not said.

Foot

could you please point me in the right direction regarding this reform? all i could find so far is a reform that Mithridates helped with, as mentioned by Appian, reforming heavy infantry to Roman fashion after defeat at Tigranokert.

[MeinPanzer]

This is the helmet I am talking about. This type of helmet is found in Armenia during EB's timeframe. Infact there are units in the game which have this helmet. (aznvakan tiknapah, and Aznvakan Aspet)

I think we are misunderstanding eachother. I do not mean to say that the Military gear of the Urartian period should be the military gear in EB's timeframe. I am merely saying that there were some traditions that did carry over such as the above helmet, and the use of scale armor.

Those helmets are both Urartian in date. Please provide me with a specific example of such a helmet which has been dated to the EB timeframe, not merely the claim that "this type of helmet is found in Armenia during EB's timeframe." I mean a specific archaeological find.

[artavazd]

Those helmets are both Urartian in date. Please provide me with a specific example of such a helmet which has been dated to the EB timeframe, not merely the claim that "this type of helmet is found in Armenia during EB's timeframe." I mean a specific archaeological find.

I dont know any specific archeological finds from EB's timeframe, but there are a few examples from even later times which depicts Armenians with those helmets.

Here is an image from Osprey's which shows an Armenian cataphract dating from I think the 3rd century Ad with the same helmet.




There are manuscripts dating from the 5th century AD that depict Armenian soldiers wearing these helmets.

http://pandapedia.com/wiki/Image:Vartanantz.jpg

the Armenians are on the right side facing the elephants.


Even though these two images are after EB's timeframe, we can see that the helmets are of the same design as the helmets of the Urartu period of Armenian history.

[artavazd]

Those helmets are both Urartian in date. Please provide me with a specific example of such a helmet which has been dated to the EB timeframe, not merely the claim that "this type of helmet is found in Armenia during EB's timeframe." I mean a specific archaeological find.

I dont know any specific archeological finds from EB's timeframe, but there are a few examples from even later times which depicts Armenians with those helmets.

Here is an image from Osprey's which shows an Armenian cataphract dating from I think the 3rd century Ad with the same helmet.




There are manuscripts dating from the 5th century AD that depict Armenian soldiers wearing these helmets.



the Armenians are on the right side facing the elephants.

Another depiction dates from the 8th century AD:



Here is the link where it talks about the helmet, and its reference to Armenia. Just scrole down to the part on Conical Helmet


http://www.geocities.com/normlaw/page13b.html

Even though these two images are after EB's timeframe, we can see that the helmets are of the same design as the helmets of the Urartu period of Armenian history.

[artavazd]

For archeological evidence, I am sure that in the Erebuni museum in Yerevan, Armenia one can see helmets of this kind dating from EB's timeframe.

[MeinPanzer]

I dont know any specific archeological finds from EB's timeframe, but there are a few examples from even later times which depicts Armenians with those helmets.

Here is an image from Osprey's which shows an Armenian cataphract dating from I think the 3rd century Ad with the same helmet.




There are manuscripts dating from the 5th century AD that depict Armenian soldiers wearing these helmets.



the Armenians are on the right side facing the elephants.

Another depiction dates from the 8th century AD:



Here is the link where it talks about the helmet, and its reference to Armenia. Just scrole down to the part on Conical Helmet


http://www.geocities.com/normlaw/page13b.html

Even though these two images are after EB's timeframe, we can see that the helmets are of the same design as the helmets of the Urartu period of Armenian history.

These are examples of Spangenhelms, a type of helmet which emerged from the Steppe and spread all over the Near East and Europe beginning around the 1st c. AD, and other Medieval types; these are unrelated from the Urartian examples posted, which predate these examples by a half at least a half a millennium. These pictures are not proof of continuity from earlier helmet types.

For archeological evidence, I am sure that in the Erebuni museum in Yerevan, Armenia one can see helmets of this kind dating from EB's timeframe.

Please, post some examples or cite some sources. Saying "I'm sure that you can find this" is nothing more than conjecture.

[artavazd]

some of the helmets from the manuscript do look like conical helmets which resemble those from the urartian times. Also in Osprey's image he notes in the back of the book, that the cataphracts helmets is of the design of the conicle helmets of urartu's time period.


Ofcourse the same design will not go on for centuries, but the helmets of Eb's time frame that the Armenians used do have a tradition in the older Urartuian designs (not the mention the greek and iranian influences)


Now if you want to see a direct proof, youll have to go to Armenia to the Erebuni Museum.

[MeinPanzer]

some of the helmets from the manuscript do look like conical helmets which resemble those from the urartian times.

They look conical. The resemblance ends there, and is not indicative of any sort of continuity.

Also in Osprey's image he notes in the back of the book, that the cataphracts helmets is of the design of the conicle helmets of urartu's time period.

Where? The description of figure C2 doesn't mention anything about the helmet. Besides, that's largely accepted as one of the poorest Osprey books on the ancient world. Case in point: the author based the figure's mail coat, which is supposed to be 3rd c. AD, on an 11th century AD relief!

Ofcourse the same design will not go on for centuries, but the helmets of Eb's time frame that the Armenians used do have a tradition in the older Urartuian designs (not the mention the greek and iranian influences)

Now if you want to see a direct proof, youll have to go to Armenia to the Erebuni Museum.

Again, you have yet to post any actual evidence. Please post some pictures or reference some actual sources.

[Sarkiss]

These are examples of Spangenhelms, a type of helmet which emerged from the Steppe and spread all over the Near East and Europe beginning around the 1st c. AD, and other Medieval types; these are unrelated from the Urartian examples posted, which predate these examples by a half at least a half a millennium.

out of curiosity, how can we say with any degree of certainty that this type of conical helmet is in fact comes from the steppes and not the famous Assyrian (Urartian) type?

[artavazd]

MeinPanzer, I can not find SPECIFIC evidence online of Armenian military helmets dating from EB's timeframe. Now Like I said in the Erebuni Museum in Armenia there is much evidence. I would also like to point out, that there is some general description of Tigran's army by Roman sources. Now TPC, would be a more knowledgeable person on this matter. Also much of the work done on the Armenians was by Sharukin.


Now If during the 9th-6th century BC there is evidence of Conicle helmets, and during the 5th century Ad we see conicle style helmets featured in manuscripts we can safely say that conicle/spangenhelm style helmets were vastly used in Armenia from the 9th century BC to the early Middle ages. Therefore during EB's timeframe it is safe to say similar helmets were used. Again I would like TPC's, and foot's comments on this issue. They are more knowledgable on this issue than I

Once again Erebuni Museum in Armenia holds the answer to these questions. Unfortunatly I couldnt find any sources from the internet.

[Barry Soteiro]

MeinPanzer, I can not find SPECIFIC evidence online of Armenian military helmets dating from EB's timeframe. Now Like I said in the Erebuni Museum in Armenia there is much evidence. I would also like to point out, that there is some general description of Tigran's army by Roman sources. Now TPC, would be a more knowledgeable person on this matter. Also much of the work done on the Armenians was by Sharukin.


Now If during the 9th-6th century BC there is evidence of Conicle helmets, and during the 5th century Ad we see conicle style helmets featured in manuscripts we can safely say that conicle/spangenhelm style helmets were vastly used in Armenia from the 9th century BC to the early Middle ages. Therefore during EB's timeframe it is safe to say similar helmets were used. Again I would like TPC's, and foot's comments on this issue. They are more knowledgable on this issue than I

Once again Erebuni Museum in Armenia holds the answer to these questions. Unfortunatly I couldnt find any sources from the internet.

I think you get PWNED by Mein Panzer lol !

[The Persian Cataphract]

I think you get PWNED by Mein Panzer lol !

And I think you should sod off. If you cannot be mature enough to recognize the beneficial qualities of proper discourse where one may at least derive a factor of learning, then you really should hold your tongue.

To bring some conclusion to the subject, MeinPanzer is correct in the observation of that Urartian findings are not proper to any form of implementation to EB's Armenian units; however at the same time, there is a continuity of a native tradition in crafting armour; in particular the tradition of using single-piece Assyrian-styled helmetry is undeniably profound throughout the entirety of the Achaemenid era, and therefore finds itself used by armoured infantry and cavalry. With the factor of using an Assyrian-style helmet, the matter of evidence becomes needlessly tedious in a situation where it must have been a self-evident element in the native militaria. The other logical candidate scattered throughout the Near East was the Phrygian-styled helmet, and again, we can delve into the esoterics, but the fact is that there is not a terrible lot of findings that are traced to the Orontid era. Therefore, we are driven to these geo-cultural derivations and abstractions. In other words, fill-in-the-blanks work.

As such, the simple helmetry brandished by the Armenian medium horsemen and the Armenian foot-guard is hardly offensive to any sensibilities. In fact the only unit in the entire standardized roster of the Armenian faction which sports a more elaborate helmet is ironically the Persian hoplite-imitation, the Cardaces, and at that it is well-attested through late-Achaemenid and Cilician satrapal coinage. Overall, the range of helmetry is modest at best and could make use of other helmet-types prevalent in the Anatolian parts of the Achaemenid worldly order, which would have included elaborate Hellenic-inspired helmets. I think the problem in this thread is rooted in basic miscommunication. We're not using Urartu-originated equipment, even though there is a resemblance between their style to that of the sommonwealth Assyrian design scattered throughout the Near East.

At the same time, when we see the colossal Armenian Tîghr/Apollon/Hercules sculpture at Nemrut Dagh...





...One can but not help to think that the specifically concave shape of the Urartian specimen, was indeed continued by later Armenian kingdoms. The "Shishak" design of helmetry is an indisputable military element throughout the Near East, and even though modifications of it existed as far as middle-Ottoman times, at its purest form, at heart it was a scull-cap with a slightly pointy apex. And that's all that there is to it.

For a simple reference for what I'm talking about:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. Elam, 14th cent. B.C.E.
2. Luristan.
3. Marlik.
4-8. Hasanlu.
9. Safidrud.
10. K¨úorvin.
11-12. Luristan. (Nos. 2-12 dated to the first third of the first millennum B.C.E.)
13. Achaemenid helmet, from Egypt.
14. Achaemenid helmet, from Olympia.
15. Oxus Treasure (British Museum).
16-17. Helmets represented on seals.
18. Achaemenid helmet, from Azerbaijan.
19. Achaemenid helmet depicted on a 5th-cent. B.C.E. Greek vase.
20. Achaemenid helmet represented on a rock relief, Lycia.
21. Achaemenid helmet (Glasgow Museum).
22. Scythian helmet, from the Kuban, 7th-6th cent. B.C.E.
23-24. Scythian helmets, Checheno-Ingushetia, 7th-6th cent. B.C.E.
25. Scythian helmet, 7th-6th cent. B.C.E.
26. Scythian helmet (Greek helmet of the Thracian type, refashioned by Scythians), Nymphai, 7th-6th cent. B.C.E.
27. Saka helmet from the Altai region, 7th-6th cent. B.C.E.
28. Saka helmet from the Talas valley, 7th-6th cent. B.C.E.
29. Saka helmet in the museum of Samarkand.
30-31. Saka helmet, from the Talas valley, 7th-6th cent. B.C.E. 32-35 and 37-38. Helmets represented on coins of the Greco-Bactrian kings
32. Eucratides I;
33. Amyntas)

Specimen 13 is especially interesting.

[The Persian Cataphract]

I really hate working with .GIF-images.

Addendum: The origins of the chart and its glossary is from an essay written by Litvinsky, concerning Khûd, or the Iranic range of helmetry in antiquity. You may refer to it here.

[artavazd]

I think you get PWNED by Mein Panzer lol !

Uhhh... what are you talking about?? I gave him a logical explanation. Now most of Historic Armenia lies in eastern turkey today, and I dont think there are any archeological work going on in Historic Armenian lands (Turkish government politics) so you and Mein Panzer can write a letter to the turkish government telling them that you want archeological excavations to unearth Armenian military gear from EB's time frame ok??


What evidence there is, like I said it is found in Erebuni Museum in Armenia. Unfortunatly there are no images of those artifacts on line.




PS Mein Panzer what is the point of your aggresive posts?? I gave you a logical explanation, and you just seem to say the same thing over and over again. is there SPECIFIC EVIDENCE for all of the units presented in EB??