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  1. #1
    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gaesatae

    When One Follows Bread Crumbs into a Fray?

    A famous spear shaker once said, ’what’s in a name, that which we call a rose, by any other name, would smell as sweet. So what’s in this name and why would the ancient Celts call these warriors Gaesatae? As mentioned many times, we know the term Gaesatae implies not a spear per se, rather its a javelin. Now, because of its design, the spear is a very good weapon when used in defense, but offensively not so much. On the other hand the javelin is of little use both on defense and offense. This is because the javelin is too short, too light, and the point way too aerodynamic to standup to the close quarter mano-a-mano blood, sweat, and tears of the melee. The only practical use for the javelin is when its tossed at the enemy, and as classical mechanic dictate, the potential of mass is converted by speed into kinetic which translates into a bodkin-esque penetration of the enemy. Once the javelin is loosed there’s no recourse, no recall; it either finds its mark or fails. Its as if the javelin were a striped down version of a spear designed to fly through the air with the greatest of ease. So...

    most simply put, the javelin as a naked type of spear was only meant to be unleashed and fly at high speed, with the singular propose to penetrate the enemy’s shield wall, or whatever it happened to run into. Again, why would the Gauls use the word for the javelin, to denote these Gaesatae warriors?

    Lets change gears here and do big picture-small to recap? First we have heavily armed-shield-wall w/spear Hellen-istas going old school all around on the world known to the west. The shield wall w/spears thingy made light and even heavy horse, which had been all the rage untill this point, all but useless. Next, to counter the shield wall w/spears thingy, someone invented the ‘float like a butterfly, sting like bee’ (Italics) or the ‘smash and grab’ tactics (Africa and the East). Of course the ‘smash and grab’ used the elephant. So lets say, what would the poor man’s version of a smash and grab operation look like? OK there would be no elephants; but there was tons of the disposable young and dumb, and all the Perps-in-Charge (PIC) had to do was ‘point and click.’

    I'm really not saying anything about the Gaesatae being either naked or clothed, other than that may be a bit of a red herring as far as the nature of the formation was concerned. What I am implying is that when the Gaesatae were on site, there was a certain expectation as to what role they would perform in combat. I view the naked warrior thing as another issue, of which elements of the Gaesatae were often a component.


    CmacQ
    Last edited by cmacq; 11-15-2008 at 17:38.
    quae res et cibi genere et cotidiana exercitatione et libertate vitae

    Herein events and rations daily birth the labors of freedom.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Gaesatae

    Quote Originally Posted by cmacq View Post
    The only practical use for the javelin is when its tossed at the enemy, and as classical mechanic dictate, the potential of mass is converted by speed into kinetic which translates into a bodkin-esque penetration of the enemy.
    let's not forget the primary reason why this is so powerful- gravity! 9.8 m/s^2 acceleration makes the small mass thing much more threatening (aerodynamics help)

    Quote Originally Posted by cmacq View Post
    Lets change gears here and do big picture-small to recap? First we have heavily armed-shield-wall w/spear Hellen-istas going old school all around on the world known to the west. The shield wall w/spears thingy made light and even heavy horse, which had been all the rage untill this point, all but useless. Next, to counter the shield wall w/spears thingy, someone invented the ‘float like a butterfly, sting like bee’ (Italics) or the ‘smash and grab’ tactics (Africa and the East). Of course the ‘smash and grab’ used the elephant. So lets say, what would the poor man’s version of a smash and grab operation look like? OK there would be no elephants; but there was tons of the disposable young and dumb, and all the Perps-in-Charge (PIC) had to do was ‘point and click.’
    speaking of 'half-baked' personal theories... I gots y'all something to mention - consider this:
    just around the Dark Age of around 1200BC we find Naue Swords [the first of the full-tang swords who redefined the blade- no more handle breaking at connection-point], these found primarily in Italy and Greece, but moreso in Thrace. Skirmisher tactics begin to be developed as a counter to the previously 'shocking', 'aweful' new technology of chariots, completely changing warfare, using javelins and lightly (in comparison) armored troops who have mobility and can be used against chariots in a loose configuration.
    [insert gaps of pre-history... myserious 'Sea Peoples' who challenge the Mediterranean]
    And later in Classical times, Thracian 'peltasts' who are known to have influenced a good deal of Europe, just happen to come from the same area, using similar tactics... The Samnites and Italic tribes who are some of the best warriors in Europe for their time, use tactics (along with technology) that make them so, using the skirmisher model... Rome becomes great because of their ability to borrow tactics and military technology from their neighbors, the jump-start being the Samnites/Italics then later Iberians then later Celts (and so on)- it is also entirely possible that having to fight such ferocious warriors also made the Romans so adept in their art at the time... Thracians and Italics are both Indo-European, yet there is something very closely linked between them... it could be simple environment (geographical, or maybe non-Indo-Europeans even) which produced similar results, but I find it very interesting (and surprisingly underestimated). The Naue sword technology and findings/deposits just happen to coincide with the skirmisher tactics developing and also with the appearance of the 'Sea Peoples'. We know from Herodotus that the Thracians were the 2nd most populous people on Earth next to the people of India! I think much is overlooked in the Thracians and the whereabouts of ancient Thrace- which included Romania besides the Balkans. The point of entry for Greek and Italic Indo-European-culture-bearers has much in common also.
    [added half-baked-goodness]
    ever notice how close La Tene / Halstatt foci are to Romania / Balkans - ancient Thrace? methinks it is no coincidence... if we tie together the Celtic, Thracian, Italic, Iberian skirmisher-oriented culture - indeed interesting.
    Last edited by blitzkrieg80; 11-15-2008 at 07:18.
    HWÆT !
    “Vesall ertu þinnar skjaldborgar!” “Your shieldwall is pathetic!” -Bǫðvar Bjarki [Hrólfs Saga Kraka]
    “Wyrd oft nereð unfǽgne eorl þonne his ellen déah.” “The course of events often saves the un-fey warrior if his valour is good.” -Bēowulf
    “Gørið eigi hárit í blóði.” “Do not get blood on [my] hair.” -Sigurð Búason to his executioner [Óláfs Saga Tryggvasonar: Heimskringla]

    Wes þū hāl ! Be whole (with luck)!

  3. #3
    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gaesatae

    Which reminds me, no one ever answered that crazy question about the Italio-Getaic wolf-warrior connection thingy??? And, how does one say Gundestrup, without digressing?


    CmacQ
    Last edited by cmacq; 11-15-2008 at 09:18.
    quae res et cibi genere et cotidiana exercitatione et libertate vitae

    Herein events and rations daily birth the labors of freedom.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Gaesatae

    I find all this stuff fascinating. Great thread! I want to comment on one little aspect though:

    Quote Originally Posted by cmacq View Post
    [B]The only practical use for the javelin is when its tossed at the enemy, and as classical mechanic dictate, the potential of mass is converted by speed into kinetic which translates into a bodkin-esque penetration of the enemy. Once the javelin is losed there’s no recourse, no recall; it either finds its mark or it fails. Its as if the javelin is a striped down version of a spear that was designed to fly through the air with the greatest of ease. So...

    most simply put, the javelin as a naked type of spear was only meant to be unleashed and fly at high speed, with the singular propose to penetrate the enemy’s shield wall, or whatever it happened to run into. Again, why would the Gauls use the word for the javelin, to denote these Gaesatae warriors?
    One of the main benefits of the general design of a javelin (I don't know the specifics of Gallic javelin design) is that it can be made of different materials to fine-tune both balance and weight for given effects. This adaptability is almost unique among projectile weapons -- consider such disparate examples as the weighted atlatl spear, the Roman plumbata, and the modern sports javelin.

    Quote Originally Posted by blitzkrieg80 View Post
    let's not forget the primary reason why this is so powerful- gravity! 9.8 m/s^2 acceleration makes the small mass thing much more threatening (aerodynamics help)
    Technically, gravity would only help if one were throwing a spear downhill. But its mass is a big help, easing the power transfer from the thrower's arm into the projectile itself and reducing the chance of injury for powerful and/or expert throwers.

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  5. #5

    Default Re: Gaesatae

    Quote Originally Posted by Gleemonex View Post
    Technically, gravity would only help if one were throwing a spear downhill. But its mass is a big help, easing the power transfer from the thrower's arm into the projectile itself and reducing the chance of injury for powerful and/or expert throwers.
    this is true in that if the projectile isn't lobbed, there is less time for gravity to apply its attraction - which i did sort of imply (the lob) where there are many contexts (i was thinking more on long-range throws, since a straight-to-target is a pretty small range) yet it is important to ask 'where does leverage come from' in the first place, which allows one to put such force onto other objects, and the answer is gravity

    Cmacq, refresh me on the the question concerning the "crazy Italio-Getaic wolf thingy" - which thread was that? sounds worth addressing, but my hippocampus hasn't survived much of my bouts from days gone by
    Last edited by blitzkrieg80; 11-15-2008 at 19:00.
    HWÆT !
    “Vesall ertu þinnar skjaldborgar!” “Your shieldwall is pathetic!” -Bǫðvar Bjarki [Hrólfs Saga Kraka]
    “Wyrd oft nereð unfǽgne eorl þonne his ellen déah.” “The course of events often saves the un-fey warrior if his valour is good.” -Bēowulf
    “Gørið eigi hárit í blóði.” “Do not get blood on [my] hair.” -Sigurð Búason to his executioner [Óláfs Saga Tryggvasonar: Heimskringla]

    Wes þū hāl ! Be whole (with luck)!

  6. #6

    Default Re: Gaesatae

    The plot thickens

    I've been thinking of this scenario and the evidence behind the Gaesatae's appearance in Cisalpine Gaul. Why would the Celts spend huge sums of gold on guys from across the Alps that simply threw a javelin? That doesn't seem like a very sound investment as really anyone can be trained to do this with relative ease and marksmanship. Were their javelin skills so great as to others adopting the name Gaesatae to describe them? Telamon tells nothing of this. The Gaesum was something more than a glorified javelin and that the Gaesatae were more than naked skilled skirmishers I would conclude.

    I've read that (and I wish I remember where) the gaesum wasn't the standard light weight spear or javelin but was sturdy enough to be both a melee spear and javelin, or a spear-javelin you could say. When it was carried the warrior's fingers could wrap around the shaft but his fingers could not overlap by a great amount.

    If the above description was similar to what the Gaesatae carried at Telamon then I think we can reconstruct part of what happened at Telamon. The velites carried lighter javelins that were designed only to throw at a significant distance. This would have obviously given them an advantage at skirmishing and or the range at which they can hurl their javelins when compared to the than that of the Gaesatae. We are unsure who opened the battle by advancing first; the Gaesate or the velites. It probably doesn't matter though. Regardless if the Gaesate advanced or waited for the velites to come within range of their gaesum, they quickly realized their gaesum could not achieve the same range as that of the velites. Getting mauled by this, some warriors chose to run towards Roman lines and died a warrior's death, others fell back in confusion as the record states.

    This is just conjecture, I've no solid proof to back much of this up but maybe it's a correct theory in some ways. The gaesum is defined as a lance, spear, and javelin so maybe the word gaesum was applied to a large variety of Gallic spear like weapons and what the Gaesatae carried was a spear-javelin type weapon suitable for all of the above throwing, being used on horseback, as well as melee.

    What do I base all of this on? Well, its mainly tidbits here and there. Rather interesting is the Irish chronicle a king who reigned at the end of the 300's B.C. returned to Ireland with some warriors from the continent (Gauls?) whom he hired. These mercenaries carried spears with 'leaf shaped blades'. Apart from this we know that the name Gaesatae are thought to mean mercenary according to the Romans; we know they are mentioned as having to be hired to fight in both instances; maybe they carried spear-javelins with large leaf shaped heads to them. I admit that all that is a lot to connect but 2000+ years later such proof may not exist. Still the connection is quite strong, despite being pulled from the historian's ancient pen and not the dirt of an archaeologist.

    Thats my 2 cents at last. Anyone feel free to poke holes in my idea here

  7. #7
    Guest desert's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gaesatae

    While this is all very interesting, my main question is still unanswered. Did they use swords at all?

  8. #8
    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gaesatae

    Following Bread Crumbs to Telamon

    I fear we may have to follow more bread crumbs before we can provide a good answer for young master Desert's question. Nice read about Telamon, and not to draw too fine a point, however I've recently relocated the battle field and its actually not at Telamon. It seems the battle occurred at a place called Fonteblanda situated astride the Via Aurelia, almost half way between Rome and Pisae. Straight line distance Telamon is located on the coast, about 2 and half miles to the west, and is separated from the battlefield by a large bowl-shaped bay (about two miles wide). Once you compare a good translation of the battle text, with the battle field site, its very clear what actually transpired there. I think this may shine a little more light on the subject.





    CmacQ
    Last edited by cmacq; 11-16-2008 at 00:35.
    quae res et cibi genere et cotidiana exercitatione et libertate vitae

    Herein events and rations daily birth the labors of freedom.

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