Gaesatae

[Gleemonex]

I find all this stuff fascinating. Great thread! I want to comment on one little aspect though:

[B]The only practical use for the javelin is when its tossed at the enemy, and as classical mechanic dictate, the potential of mass is converted by speed into kinetic which translates into a bodkin-esque penetration of the enemy. Once the javelin is losed there’s no recourse, no recall; it either finds its mark or it fails. Its as if the javelin is a striped down version of a spear that was designed to fly through the air with the greatest of ease. So...

most simply put, the javelin as a naked type of spear was only meant to be unleashed and fly at high speed, with the singular propose to penetrate the enemy’s shield wall, or whatever it happened to run into. Again, why would the Gauls use the word for the javelin, to denote these Gaesatae warriors?

One of the main benefits of the general design of a javelin (I don't know the specifics of Gallic javelin design) is that it can be made of different materials to fine-tune both balance and weight for given effects. This adaptability is almost unique among projectile weapons -- consider such disparate examples as the weighted atlatl spear, the Roman plumbata, and the modern sports javelin.

let's not forget the primary reason why this is so powerful- gravity! 9.8 m/s^2 acceleration makes the small mass thing much more threatening (aerodynamics help)

Technically, gravity would only help if one were throwing a spear downhill. But its mass is a big help, easing the power transfer from the thrower's arm into the projectile itself and reducing the chance of injury for powerful and/or expert throwers.

-Glee

[blitzkrieg80]

Technically, gravity would only help if one were throwing a spear downhill. But its mass is a big help, easing the power transfer from the thrower's arm into the projectile itself and reducing the chance of injury for powerful and/or expert throwers.

this is true in that if the projectile isn't lobbed, there is less time for gravity to apply its attraction - which i did sort of imply (the lob) where there are many contexts (i was thinking more on long-range throws, since a straight-to-target is a pretty small range) yet it is important to ask 'where does leverage come from' in the first place, which allows one to put such force onto other objects, and the answer is gravity

Cmacq, refresh me on the the question concerning the "crazy Italio-Getaic wolf thingy" - which thread was that? sounds worth addressing, but my hippocampus hasn't survived much of my bouts from days gone by

[Power2the1]

The plot thickens

I've been thinking of this scenario and the evidence behind the Gaesatae's appearance in Cisalpine Gaul. Why would the Celts spend huge sums of gold on guys from across the Alps that simply threw a javelin? That doesn't seem like a very sound investment as really anyone can be trained to do this with relative ease and marksmanship. Were their javelin skills so great as to others adopting the name Gaesatae to describe them? Telamon tells nothing of this. The Gaesum was something more than a glorified javelin and that the Gaesatae were more than naked skilled skirmishers I would conclude.

I've read that (and I wish I remember where) the gaesum wasn't the standard light weight spear or javelin but was sturdy enough to be both a melee spear and javelin, or a spear-javelin you could say. When it was carried the warrior's fingers could wrap around the shaft but his fingers could not overlap by a great amount.

If the above description was similar to what the Gaesatae carried at Telamon then I think we can reconstruct part of what happened at Telamon. The velites carried lighter javelins that were designed only to throw at a significant distance. This would have obviously given them an advantage at skirmishing and or the range at which they can hurl their javelins when compared to the than that of the Gaesatae. We are unsure who opened the battle by advancing first; the Gaesate or the velites. It probably doesn't matter though. Regardless if the Gaesate advanced or waited for the velites to come within range of their gaesum, they quickly realized their gaesum could not achieve the same range as that of the velites. Getting mauled by this, some warriors chose to run towards Roman lines and died a warrior's death, others fell back in confusion as the record states.

This is just conjecture, I've no solid proof to back much of this up but maybe it's a correct theory in some ways. The gaesum is defined as a lance, spear, and javelin so maybe the word gaesum was applied to a large variety of Gallic spear like weapons and what the Gaesatae carried was a spear-javelin type weapon suitable for all of the above throwing, being used on horseback, as well as melee.

What do I base all of this on? Well, its mainly tidbits here and there. Rather interesting is the Irish chronicle a king who reigned at the end of the 300's B.C. returned to Ireland with some warriors from the continent (Gauls?) whom he hired. These mercenaries carried spears with 'leaf shaped blades'. Apart from this we know that the name Gaesatae are thought to mean mercenary according to the Romans; we know they are mentioned as having to be hired to fight in both instances; maybe they carried spear-javelins with large leaf shaped heads to them. I admit that all that is a lot to connect but 2000+ years later such proof may not exist. Still the connection is quite strong, despite being pulled from the historian's ancient pen and not the dirt of an archaeologist.

Thats my 2 cents at last. Anyone feel free to poke holes in my idea here

[desert]

While this is all very interesting, my main question is still unanswered. Did they use swords at all?

[Taliferno]

While this is all very interesting, my main question is still unanswered. Did they use swords at all?

I don't have the texts in front of me but I don't think they are mentioned as using them by any of the historians. But it wouldn't suprise me if archaeologists have found a few swords in the area they were said to have inhabited. Like most celtic warriors the spear (perhaps a differn't type of spear like Power2the1 says) would have been their primary weapon, with perhaps officers/champions/chiefs having a sword. In EB1 the typical Gaesatae is meant to be represented by the Uirodusios (along with various other warrior cults such as the Diberga) whilst the actual Gaesatae Unit represents champions of the tribe. There have been a few threads about this subject before so it might be worth your while doing a search.

But the discussion going on here is quite interesting and I hope it continues

[cmacq]

I almost forgot.

Periochae: Ex libro XX
T Livius

M. Claudius Marcellus cos. occiso Gallorum Insubrium duce, Vertomaro, opima spolia rettulit.

Summaries: Book 20
Livy

My Rendering
The consul M. Claudius Marcellus felled Viridomarus, leader of the Gallic Insubres, returning with rich spoils (a term that means trophy armor and arms taked due to personal combat).


----------------------------------------------------------------------

This is another account of the Battle of Clastidium, this time in Latin. Here, Viridomarus is in Latin Vertomaro, or Britomartus/Βριτόματος in Greek. I also didn't mention that Clastidium was a village of the Anamares, and is the modern Casteggio located along the Via Aemilia (but this wasn't build until about 180 BC, so the Aemilia must have followed an earlier road). By the way Acerrae was located in the eastern end of the Po basin and Clastidium at the west end. Marcellus' route would have been about 100 miles (at 40 miles a day), so he likely force marched at least two and a half days. Finally, the Battle of Clastidium occured three years after Telamon.



CmacQ

[cmacq]

Bread Crumbs as Food For Thought

Right, maybe the trail doesn't go completely cold after Marcellus?

I also forgot the Cohors Gaesatorum, auxilia units, claimed by someone recent, to have been formed in Raetia, in the mid 1st century AD. I might have to research this a little more? And...
Vexillatio Gaesatorum Raetorum, again as the name implies, recruited in Raetia, serving at Great Chesters, Hadrian’s Wall, Great Britain, in the 3rd century AD. However, that unit may actually be Vexillatio Raetorum et Gaesatorum, found at Cappuck, Risingham, and Great Chesters, Great Britain, again 3rd century AD. Then Cohors I Aelia gaesatorum milliaria, attested on the diploma for Pannonia Superior, dated July 1st, AD 126. This diploma tells that this unit had men eligible for discharge, which were recruited around AD 101. The cohort may have been raised early in Hadrian’s rule, therefore the honorific title Aelius. These men discharged in AD 126 and had been part of the core round which the larger unit was formed. The Romans also had auxilia units called Gallorum, Hispanorum, Brittonum, Cananefatium, Batavorum, Illyricorum, Bosporanorum, Dacorum, Numidarum, Raetorum, Thracum, Petreorum, Vindelicorum, Cantabrorum, Galatarum, and many more. In Latin, these names do not indicate the use of a weapon type; rather they signify the tradition or ethnic affiliation of where the unit was recruited. So, the Latin use of Gaesatorum, doesn't mean a unit of Celtic spearmen. It implies 'those recruited from among the Gaesati.' Herein, the Romans seem to have usurped a Celtic tradition to supply man power to help run their war machine.




CmacQ

[cmacq]

Following Bread Crumbs to Telamon

I fear we may have to follow more bread crumbs before we can provide a good answer for young master Desert's question. Nice read about Telamon, and not to draw too fine a point, however I've recently relocated the battle field and its actually not at Telamon. It seems the battle occurred at a place called Fonteblanda situated astride the Via Aurelia, almost half way between Rome and Pisae. Straight line distance Telamon is located on the coast, about 2 and half miles to the west, and is separated from the battlefield by a large bowl-shaped bay (about two miles wide). Once you compare a good translation of the battle text, with the battle field site, its very clear what actually transpired there. I think this may shine a little more light on the subject.





CmacQ