Gaesatae

[desert]

So, did Gaesatae fight with spears or swords? Several other sources claim they were armed with the former, and that Gaesatae means "spearmen".

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Gaesatae
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O70-Gaesatae.html
http://books.google.com/books?id=-yd...esult#PPA84,M1
http://www.isle-of-skye.org.uk/celti...ia/celt_c3.htm
and Wikipedia

Are you/they wrong, or is information about the Gaesatae too ambiguous to be certain?

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

I think they had javelin/spear/sword but the game only allows for two weapons...

[Power2the1]

Their main weapon was probably the gaesum/gaeson, or throwing spear, but no doubt they would have been trained to melee with all manner of weapons like swords and such. They probably did not fight as a phalanx as that one link mentioned only because their mode of battle, at least at Telamon, did not fit the phalanx model. Its even known that some of them could have fought wearing armor, such as their king at the battle of Clastidium.

EB2 will have some changes done to this unit chances are

[theoldbelgian]

ow wait a second
the gaesatae are the naked guys right
It has to be ,I still wake up sweating while screaming gaesatae every night
so what you are saying is there was a king of the naked guys and he wore armor?
how does that cope?

[Power2the1]

I think when the gaesatae were first concepted long ago in EB1, every single one of them had to be naked due to RTW engine limits.

Now with MTW2 we can mix it up a bit on what they wear. Chances are the majority will still remain naked but a king, possibly of the gaesatae, wore gleaming armor. That might hint that some would wear armor. We'll see how it all turns out though

Heres the record mentioning such things:

http://classics.mit.edu/Plutarch/marcellu.html
The king of the Gauls beholding Marcellus, and from the badges of his authority conjecturing him to be the general, advanced some way before his embattled army, and with a loud voice challenged him, and, brandishing his lance, fiercely ran in full career at him; exceeding the rest of the Gauls in stature, and with his armour, that was adorned with gold and silver and various colours, shining like lightning. These arms seeming to Marcellus, while he viewed the enemy's army drawn up in battalia, to be the best and fairest, and thinking them to be those he had vowed to Jupiter, he instantly ran upon the king, and pierced through his breastplate with his lance; then pressing upon him with the weight of his horse, threw him to the ground, and with two or three strokes more slew him. Immediately he leapt from his horse, laid his hand upon the dead king's arm and, looking up towards Heaven, thus spoke: "O Jupiter Feretrius, arbiter of the exploits of captains, and of the acts of commanders in war and battles, be thou witness that I, a general, have slain a general: I, a consul, have slain a king with my own hand, third of all the Romans; and that to thee I consecrate these first and most excellent of the spoils. Grant to us to despatch the relics of the war with the same course of fortune." Then the Roman horse joining battle not only with the enemy's horse, but also with the foot who attacked them, obtained a singular and unheard-of victory. For never before or since have so few horse defeated such numerous forces of horse and foot together. The enemies being to a great number slain, and the spoils collected, he returned to his colleague, who was conducting the war, with ill-success, against the enemies near the greatest and most populous of the Gallic cities, Milan. This was their capital, and, therefore, fighting valiantly in defence of it, they were not so much besieged by Cornelius, as they besieged him. But Marcellus having returned, and the Gaesatae retiring as soon as they were certified of the death of the king and the defeat of his army, Milan was taken. The rest of their towns, and all they had, the Gauls delivered up of their own accord to the Romans, and had peace upon equitable conditions granted to them.

[hoom]

The only Gaesatae in that passage (at least as translated) are the ones that were at Milan and withdrew after the death of the Cisalpine Gaulish king.
There is no indication he was a Gaesatae king.

[Ca Putt]

armor does not have to hide evreything.

[Power2the1]

The only Gaesatae in that passage (at least as translated) are the ones that were at Milan and withdrew after the death of the Cisalpine Gaulish king.
There is no indication he was a Gaesatae king.

You are right...I totally forgot to post all of it. Ok lets start over with a full background to the battle of Clastidium

Ok, what I forgot to add in the prior post is the king of the Gaesatae is mention by name; Britomarus. Hes the only king mentioned in the passage at all, so the king in the second paragraph that is killed by Marcellus must have been him. It seems there was a combined Gaesatae and Gallic (Insubrian?) force here, but the details are not terrible clear as to who is who. Of the 30,000 Gaesatae that come across the Alps, Britomarus appears to take 10,000 soldiers with him to raid but its not clear if these are all Gaesatae he brought or both Gaesatae and Isubres. Therefore when cavalry is mentioned as being apart of this 10,000 we are unsure if these are mounted Gaesatae, Insubres, or both? The details are not overly clear.

So soon as Flaminius with his colleague had resigned the consulate, Marcellus was declared consul by the presiding officers called Interrexes; and, entering into the magistracy, chose Cnaeus Cornelius his colleague. There was a report that, the Gauls proposing a pacification, and the senate also inclining to peace, Marcellus inflamed the people to war; but a peace appears to have been agreed upon, which the Gaesatae broke; who, passing the Alps, stirred up the Insubrians (they being thirty thousand in number, and the Insubrians more numerous by far); and proud of their strength, marched directly to Acerrae, a city seated on the north of the river Po. From thence Britomartus, king of the Gaesatae, taking with him ten thousand soldiers, harassed the country round about. News of which being brought to Marcellus, leaving his colleague at Acerrae with the foot and all the heavy arms and a third part of the horse, and carrying with him the rest of the horse and six hundred light-armed foot, marching night and day without remission, he stayed not till he came up to these ten thousand near a Gaulish village called Clastidium, which not long before had been reduced under the Roman jurisdiction. Nor had he time to refresh his soldiers or to give them rest. For the barbarians, that were then present, immediately observed his approach, and contemned him, because he had very few foot with him. The Gauls were singularly skilful in horsemanship, and thought to excel in it; and as at present they also exceeded Marcellus in number, they made no account of him. They, therefore, with their king at their head, instantly charged upon him, as if they would trample him under their horses' feet, threatening all kinds of cruelties. Marcellus, because his men were few, that they might not be encompassed and charged on all sides by the enemy, extended his wings of horse, and, riding about, drew out his wings of foot in length, till he came near to the enemy. Just as he was in the act of turning round to face the enemy, it so happened that his horse, startled with their fierce look and their cries, gave back, and carried him forcibly aside. Fearing lest this accident, if converted into an omen, might discourage his soldiers, he quickly brought his horse round to confront the enemy, and made a gesture of adoration to the sun, as if he had wheeled about not by chance, but for a purpose of devotion. For it was customary to the Romans, when they offered worship to the gods, to turn round; and in this moment of meeting the enemy, he is said to have vowed the best of the arms to Jupiter Feretrius.

Now the second part:

The king of the Gauls beholding Marcellus, and from the badges of his authority conjecturing him to be the general, advanced some way before his embattled army, and with a loud voice challenged him, and, brandishing his lance, fiercely ran in full career at him; exceeding the rest of the Gauls in stature, and with his armour, that was adorned with gold and silver and various colours, shining like lightning. These arms seeming to Marcellus, while he viewed the enemy's army drawn up in battalia, to be the best and fairest, and thinking them to be those he had vowed to Jupiter, he instantly ran upon the king, and pierced through his breastplate with his lance; then pressing upon him with the weight of his horse, threw him to the ground, and with two or three strokes more slew him. Immediately he leapt from his horse, laid his hand upon the dead king's arm and, looking up towards Heaven, thus spoke: "O Jupiter Feretrius, arbiter of the exploits of captains, and of the acts of commanders in war and battles, be thou witness that I, a general, have slain a general: I, a consul, have slain a king with my own hand, third of all the Romans; and that to thee I consecrate these first and most excellent of the spoils. Grant to us to despatch the relics of the war with the same course of fortune." Then the Roman horse joining battle not only with the enemy's horse, but also with the foot who attacked them, obtained a singular and unheard-of victory. For never before or since have so few horse defeated such numerous forces of horse and foot together. The enemies being to a great number slain, and the spoils collected, he returned to his colleague, who was conducting the war, with ill-success, against the enemies near the greatest and most populous of the Gallic cities, Milan. This was their capital, and, therefore, fighting valiantly in defence of it, they were not so much besieged by Cornelius, as they besieged him. But Marcellus having returned, and the Gaesatae retiring as soon as they were certified of the death of the king and the defeat of his army, Milan was taken. The rest of their towns, and all they had, the Gauls delivered up of their own accord to the Romans, and had peace upon equitable conditions granted to them.

I did not have the privilege to watch this battle obviously. However this account does indeed smell of inaccuracies or, more probable, plain ol' Roman propaganda . According to this account Marcellus went out to fight this 10,000 strong enemy force with only 600, yes, 600 light armed troops whom he spread out in a thin line. With this 600 are 1/4 of all the horsemen as Marcellus left 3/4 of the horse at Acerrae. This small force marched all through the night and day without remission and no doubt were rather fatigued once the Gauls attacked. Maybe the unknown number of Roman horsemen came to thousands and thousands. Who knows for sure, but draw your own conclusions on all this. The numbers of both sides, probably the Roman side, must have been marginalized

[cmacq]

A breach of self imposed protocol.

This English translation implies that the Gaulish king who comanded this Gaesatae detachment was both fully dressed for battle and mounted. That is mounted, until he was unhorsed. This fits nicely with my little half-baked theory. Maybe the Greek text should be checked to find out what it really says?




CmacQ

[Power2the1]

I'm game...especially if it revolves around Celts/Gauls. Whats this half baked theory of yours?

[cmacq]

The Greek text should be checked first.

[cmacq]

Paragraph 6

It seems that the Loeb Classical Library edition is a better translation.

ΜΑΡΚΕΛΛΟΣ

Plutarch, Parallel Lives
The Life of Marcellus
Ὡς δ' οὖν ἐξωμόσαντο τὴν ἀρχὴν οἱ περὶ τὸν Φλαμίνιον, διὰ τῶν καλουμένων μεσοβασιλέων ὕπατος ἀποδείκνυται Μάρκελλος, καὶ παραλαβὼν τὴν ἀρχὴν [2] ἀποδείκνυσιν αὑτῷ συνάρχοντα Γναῖον Κορνήλιον. ἐλέχθη μὲν οὖν ὡς πολλὰ συμβατικὰ τῶν Γαλατῶν <προτεινάντων>, καὶ τῆς βουλῆς εἰρηναῖα βουλευομένης, ὁ Μάρκελλος ἐξετράχυνε τὸν δῆμον ἐπὶ τὸν πόλεμον· οὐ μὴν ἀλλὰ κἂν γενομένης εἰρήνης ἀνακαινίσαι τὸν πόλεμον οἱ Γαισάται δοκοῦσι, τὰς Ἄλπεις ὑπερβαλόντες καὶ τοὺς Ἰνσόμβρους [4] ἐπάραντες· τρισμύριοι γὰρ ὄντες, προσεγένοντο πολλαπλασίοις ἐκείνοις οὖσι, καὶ μέγα φρονοῦντες εὐθὺς ἐπ' Ἀκέρρας ὥρμησαν, πόλιν ὑπὲρ ποταμοῦ Πάδου συνῳκισμένην· ἐκεῖθεν δὲ μυρίους τῶν Γαισατῶν ὁ βασιλεὺς Βριτόματος ἀναλαβὼν τὴν περὶ Πάδον χώραν ἐπόρθει. [5] ταῦτα Μάρκελλος πυθόμενος, τὸν μὲν συνάρχοντα πρὸς Ἀκέρραις ἀπέλιπε, τὴν πεζὴν καὶ βαρεῖαν ὁμοῦ πᾶσαν [6] ἔχοντα δύναμιν καὶ τῶν ἱππέων μέρος τρίτον· αὐτὸς δὲ τοὺς λοιποὺς ἱππεῖς ἀναλαβὼν καὶ τοὺς ἐλαφροτάτους τῶν ὁπλιτῶν περὶ ἑξακοσίους ἤλαυνεν, οὔθ' ἡμέρας οὔτε νυκτὸς ἀνιεὶς τὸν δρόμον, ἕως ἐπέβαλε τοῖς μυρίοις Γαισάταις περὶ τὸ καλούμενον Κλαστίδιον, Γαλατικὴν κώμην οὐ πρὸ πολλοῦ Ῥωμαίοις ὑπήκοον γεγενημένην. [7] ἀναλαβεῖν δὲ καὶ διαναπαῦσαι τὸν στρατὸν οὐχ ὑπῆρξεν αὐτῷ· ταχὺ γὰρ αἴσθησιν τοῖς βαρβάροις ἀφικόμενος παρέσχε, καὶ κατεφρονήθη, πεζῶν μὲν ὀλίγων παντάπασιν ὄντων σὺν αὐτῷ, τὸ δ' ἱππικὸν ἐν οὐδενὶ λόγῳ τῶν [8] Κελτῶν τιθεμένων. κράτιστοι γὰρ ὄντες ἱππομαχεῖν καὶ μάλιστα τούτῳ διαφέρειν δοκοῦντες, τότε καὶ πλήθει πολὺ τὸν Μάρκελλον ὑπερέβαλλον. εὐθὺς οὖν ἐπ' αὐτὸν ὡς ἀναρπασόμενοι μετὰ βίας πολλῆς καὶ δεινῶν ἀπειλῶν [9] ἐφέροντο, τοῦ βασιλέως προϊππεύοντος. ὁ δὲ Μάρκελλος, ὡς μὴ φθαῖεν αὐτὸν ἐγκυκλωσάμενοι καὶ περιχυθέντες ὀλιγοστὸν ὄντα, τὰς ἴλας ἦγε πόρρω τῶν ἱππέων καὶ παρήλαυνε, λεπτὸν ἐκτείνων τὸ κέρας, ἄχρι οὗ μικρὸν ἀπέσχε τῶν πολεμίων. [10] Ἤδη δέ πως εἰς ἐμβολὴν ἐπιστρέφοντος αὐτοῦ, συντυγχάνει τὸν ἵππον πτυρέντα τῇ γαυρότητι τῶν πολεμίων ἀποτραπέσθαι καὶ βίᾳ φέρειν ὀπίσω τὸν Μάρκελλον. [11] ὁ δὲ τοῦτο δείσας μὴ ταραχὴν ἐκ δεισιδαιμονίας τοῖς Ῥωμαίοις ἐνεργάσηται, ταχὺ περισπάσας ἐφ' ἡνίαν τῷ χαλινῷ καὶ περιστρέψας τὸν ἵππον ἐναντίον τοῖς πολεμίοις, τὸν ἥλιον [αὐτὸς] προσεκύνησεν, ὡς δὴ μὴ κατὰ τύχην, ἀλλ' ἕνεκα τούτου τῇ περιαγωγῇ χρησάμενος· [12] οὕτω γὰρ ἔθος ἐστὶ Ῥωμαίοις προσκυνεῖν τοὺς θεοὺς περιστρεφομένοις, Αὐτὸν ἤδη προσμειγνύντα τοῖς ἐναντίοις προσεύξασθαι τῷ Φερετρίῳ Διῒ τὰ κάλλιστα τῶν παρὰ τοῖς πολεμίοις ὅπλων καθιερώσειν.

My Rendering
Accordingly, Flaminius’ term of office drew to a close, because of the 'Leading Ten's' call, Marcellus was appointed (consul), and immediately after entering office he served jointly with Gnaeus Cornelius. In truth, it’s correct to say that many Senators as well as Celtic leaders proposed peace, deliberately Marcellus incited the nation to war, and actually peace came only to be reversed by the Gaesatae desire to renew the war. They crossed over the Alps and incited the Insubre, their number thrice ten thousand, joining themselves to the latter that were many more that sum, with high-spirits they hastened straight for Acerrae (Insubres), a city over the river Po. United, yet thereafter Britomartus the Gaesatae king took ten thousand and plundered the country round about the Po. Of this Marcellus learned, hence on the one hand he left behind his co-consul at Acerrae, together with a force of the heavy foot and all but a third of the horse which he took as well as about six hundred lightly-armed foot, moving out they raced and rested not one day nor night until they came upon the ten thousand Gaesatae near a place called Clastidium (Anamares). a Celtic village not long before made subject to the Romans. However, not resting his troops he quickly took the initiative, for the barbarians perceived his arrival and exhibited contempt for the foot with him which were altogether indeed small in number, these Celts placed not even a consideration of his horse. As cavalry they were considered most excellent, and assumed superiority at this time, for their greater numbers much surpassed Marcellus. Directly they came upon him as if to brush aside by great bodily force and dreadfully offered boastful threats, with their king in the fore. However Marcellus, with so few a number of companions anticipated that they could not engage without being surrounded, so he lead his troops forward with the horse on the flanks, these he extended stretching out the wings of his force to the extreme, until they were near and not far from doing battle. However, at the moment he turned to sound the charge, his horse was startled by the enemy's display of hostility and against Marcellus’ will stepped back and wheeled around. Of this he feared not to create confusion nor inspire superstition among the Romans, thereupon quickly on the reins he drew back and whirled his horse round to face the enemy, he respectively saluted the sun, and thus proclaimed it was not happenstance, rather he turned round as planned; this was the Roman custom to greet and pledge to a god, immediately before meeting the enemy he addressed in prayer Jupiter Feretrius (enforcer of oaths), and offered the most beautiful armor from among the enemy.

Translation by John Dryden
So soon as Flaminius with his colleague had resigned the consulate, Marcellus was declared consul by the presiding officers called Interrexes; and, entering into the magistracy, chose Cnaeus Cornelius his colleague. There was a report that, the Gauls proposing a pacification, and the senate also inclining to peace, Marcellus inflamed the people to war; but a peace appears to have been agreed upon, which the Gaesatae broke; who, passing the Alps, stirred up the Insubrians (they being thirty thousand in number, and the Insubrians more numerous by far); and proud of their strength, marched directly to Acerrae, a city seated on the north of the river Po. From thence Britomartus, king of the Gaesatae, taking with him ten thousand soldiers, harassed the country round about. News of which being brought to Marcellus, leaving his colleague at Acerrae with the foot and all the heavy arms and a third part of the horse, and carrying with him the rest of the horse and six hundred light-armed foot, marching night and day without remission, he stayed not till he came up to these ten thousand near a Gaulish village called Clastidium, which not long before had been reduced under the Roman jurisdiction. Nor had he time to refresh his soldiers or to give them rest. For the barbarians, that were then present, immediately observed his approach, and contemned him, because he had very few foot with him. The Gauls were singularly skilful in horsemanship, and thought to excel in it; and as at present they also exceeded Marcellus in number, they made no account of him. They, therefore, with their king at their head, instantly charged upon him, as if they would trample him under their horses' feet, threatening all kinds of cruelties. Marcellus, because his men were few, that they might not be encompassed and charged on all sides by the enemy, extended his wings of horse, and, riding about, drew out his wings of foot in length, till he came near to the enemy. Just as he was in the act of turning round to face the enemy, it so happened that his horse, startled with their fierce look and their cries, gave back, and carried him forcibly aside. Fearing lest this accident, if converted into an omen, might discourage his soldiers, he quickly brought his horse round to confront the enemy, and made a gesture of adoration to the sun, as if he had wheeled about not by chance, but for a purpose of devotion. For it was customary to the Romans, when they offered worship to the gods, to turn round; and in this moment of meeting the enemy, he is said to have vowed the best of the arms to Jupiter Feretrius.

1917 Loeb Classical Library edition, Vol. V.
But to resume the story, after Flaminius and his colleague had renounced their offices, Marcellus was appointed consul by the so called "interreges". He took the office, and appointed Gnaeus Cornelius his colleague. Now it has been said that, although the Gauls made many conciliatory proposals, and although the senate was peaceably inclined, Marcellus tried to provoke the people to continue the war. However, it would seem that even after peace was made Gaesatae renewed the war; they crossed the Alps and stirred up the Insubrians. They numbered thirty thousand themselves, and the Insubrians, whom they joined, were much more numerous. With high confidence, therefore, they marched at once to Acerrae, a city situated to the north of the river Po. From thence Britomartus the king, taking with him ten thousand of the Gaesatae, ravaged the country about the Po. When Marcellus learned of this, he left his colleague at Acerrae with all the heavy-armed infantry and a third part of the cavalry, while he himself, taking with him the rest of the cavalry and the most lightly equipped men-at arms to the number of six hundred, marched, without halting in his course day or night, until he came upon the ten thousand Gaesatae near the place called Clastidium, a Gallic village which not long before had become subject to the Romans. There was no time for him to give his army rest and refreshment, for the Barbarians quickly learned of his arrival, and held in contempt the infantry with him, which were few in number all told, and, being Gauls, made no account of his cavalry. For they were most excellent fighters on horseback, and were thought to be specially superior as such, and, besides, at this time they far outnumbered Marcellus. Immediately, therefore, they charged upon him with great violence and dreadful threats, thinking to overwhelm him, their king riding in front of them. 5 But Marcellus, that they might not succeed in enclosing and surrounding him and his few followers, led his troops of cavalry forward and tried to outflank them, extending his wing into a thin line, until he was not far from the enemy. And now, just as he was turning to make a charge, his horse, frightened by the ferocious aspect of the enemy, wheeled about and bore mostly forcibly back. 6 But he, fearing lest this should be taken as a bad omen by the Romans and lead to confusion among them, quickly reined his horse round to the left and made him face the enemy, while he himself made adoration to the sun, implying that it was not p451by chance, but for this purpose, that he had wheeled about; for it is the custom with the Romans to turn round in this way when they make adoration to the gods. And in the moment of closing with the enemy he is said to have vowed that he would consecrate to Jupiter Feretrius the most beautiful suit of armour among them.




CmacQ

[cmacq]

Paragraph 7

It's clear that the commander of the Gaesatae detachment was in full battle dress and on a mount. The text also indicates that the rank and file of this Gaesate detachment were well dressed for battle.


ΜΑΡΚΕΛΛΟΣ

Plutarch, Parallel Lives
The Life of Marcellus
[7] Ἐν τούτῳ δὲ κατιδὼν ὁ τῶν Γαλατῶν βασιλεὺς καὶ τεκμηράμενος ἀπὸ τῶν συμβόλων ἄρχοντα τοῦτον εἶναι, πολὺ πρὸ τῶν ἄλλων ἐξελάσας τὸν ἵππον ὑπηντίασεν, ἅμα τῇ φωνῇ προκλητικὸν ἐπαλαλάζων καὶ τὸ δόρυ κραδαίνων, ἀνὴρ μεγέθει τε σώματος ἔξοχος Γαλατῶν, καὶ πανοπλίᾳ <διαφέρων> ἐν ἀργύρῳ καὶ χρυσῷ καὶ βαφαῖς καὶ ποικίλμασι πᾶσιν ὥσπερ ἀστραπῇ [διαφέρων]. (2) στιλβούσῃ. ὡς οὖν ἐπιβλέψαντι τὴν φάλαγγα τῷ Μαρκέλλῳ ταῦτα τῶν ὅπλων ἔδοξε κάλλιστα, καὶ κατὰ τούτων ὑπέλαβε πεποιῆσθαι τῷ θεῷ τὴν κατευχήν, ὥρμησεν ἐπὶ τὸν ἄνδρα, καὶ τῷ δόρατι διακόψας τὸν θώρακα, καὶ συνεπερείσας τῇ ῥύμῃ τοῦ ἵππου, ζῶντα μὲν αὐτὸν περιέτρεψε, δευτέραν δὲ καὶ τρίτην πληγὴν ἐνσείσας εὐθὺς ἀπέκτεινεν.

My Rendering
[7] Yet meanwhile the Celtic king beheld him, and judged by his armor a proof of rank, thus to confront and claim this prize in front of the others he rushed forth his horse, while he bellowed a war-cry and shook a spear. In his prime he was the tallest and most powerfully built among the Celts, and differed by bearing a full set of armor embellished with silver and gold that flashed as lighting. (2) Then, Marcellus surveyed the enemy battle line noticing this armor was a work of beauty, and forthwith accepted the challenge to win what he had just pledged to god, rushed on up towards the man, and with his spear pierced his cuirass, and transfixed then forced him from his horse. In truth, still full of life he then turned around, and drove home a second and third thrust to kill.

Translation by John Dryden
[7] The king of the Gauls beholding Marcellus, and from the badges of his authority conjecturing him to be the general, advanced some way before his embattled army, and with a loud voice challenged him, and, brandishing his lance, fiercely ran in full career at him; exceeding the rest of the Gauls in stature, and with his armour, that was adorned with gold and silver and various colours, shining like lightning. (2) These arms seeming to Marcellus, while he viewed the enemy's army drawn up in battalia, to be the best and fairest, and thinking them to be those he had vowed to Jupiter, he instantly ran upon the king, and pierced through his breastplate with his lance; then pressing upon him with the weight of his horse, threw him to the ground, and with two or three strokes more slew him.

1917 Loeb Classical Library edition, Vol. V.
[7] Meanwhile the king of the Gauls espied him, and judging from his insignia that he was the commander, rode far out in front of the rest, and confronted him, shouting challenges and brandishing his spear. His stature exceeded that of the other Gauls, and he was conspicuous for a suit of armour which was set off with gold and silver and bright colours and all sorts of broideries; it gleamed like lightning. (2) Accordingly, as Marcellus surveyed the ranks of the enemy, this seemed to him to be the most beautiful armour, and he concluded that it was this which he had vowed to the god. He therefore rushed upon the man, and by a thrust of his spear which pierced his adversary's breastplate, and by the impact of his horse in full career, threw him, still living, upon the ground, where, with a second and third blow, he promptly killed him.




CmacQ

[Power2the1]

Great info cmacq! As the current Aedui/Arverni guy (F.C.) for EB the Gaesatae were the first EB2 unit to go through 'rough draft' reconceptualization by myself and these exact texts that we're discussing in this thread I used as the basis for the recommended changes. Your additional confirmation that the Gaesatae members were not entirely 100% naked helps to cements these planned changes for the Gaesatae

I guess the fans now a little bit of insight on EB2 Gaesatae

[cmacq]

When One Follows Bread Crumbs into a Fray?

A famous spear shaker once said, ’what’s in a name, that which we call a rose, by any other name, would smell as sweet. So what’s in this name and why would the ancient Celts call these warriors Gaesatae? As mentioned many times, we know the term Gaesatae implies not a spear per se, rather its a javelin. Now, because of its design, the spear is a very good weapon when used in defense, but offensively not so much. On the other hand the javelin is of little use both on defense and offense. This is because the javelin is too short, too light, and the point way too aerodynamic to standup to the close quarter mano-a-mano blood, sweat, and tears of the melee. The only practical use for the javelin is when its tossed at the enemy, and as classical mechanic dictate, the potential of mass is converted by speed into kinetic which translates into a bodkin-esque penetration of the enemy. Once the javelin is loosed there’s no recourse, no recall; it either finds its mark or fails. Its as if the javelin were a striped down version of a spear designed to fly through the air with the greatest of ease. So...

most simply put, the javelin as a naked type of spear was only meant to be unleashed and fly at high speed, with the singular propose to penetrate the enemy’s shield wall, or whatever it happened to run into. Again, why would the Gauls use the word for the javelin, to denote these Gaesatae warriors?

Lets change gears here and do big picture-small to recap? First we have heavily armed-shield-wall w/spear Hellen-istas going old school all around on the world known to the west. The shield wall w/spears thingy made light and even heavy horse, which had been all the rage untill this point, all but useless. Next, to counter the shield wall w/spears thingy, someone invented the ‘float like a butterfly, sting like bee’ (Italics) or the ‘smash and grab’ tactics (Africa and the East). Of course the ‘smash and grab’ used the elephant. So lets say, what would the poor man’s version of a smash and grab operation look like? OK there would be no elephants; but there was tons of the disposable young and dumb, and all the Perps-in-Charge (PIC) had to do was ‘point and click.’

I'm really not saying anything about the Gaesatae being either naked or clothed, other than that may be a bit of a red herring as far as the nature of the formation was concerned. What I am implying is that when the Gaesatae were on site, there was a certain expectation as to what role they would perform in combat. I view the naked warrior thing as another issue, of which elements of the Gaesatae were often a component.


CmacQ

[blitzkrieg80]

The only practical use for the javelin is when its tossed at the enemy, and as classical mechanic dictate, the potential of mass is converted by speed into kinetic which translates into a bodkin-esque penetration of the enemy.

let's not forget the primary reason why this is so powerful- gravity! 9.8 m/s^2 acceleration makes the small mass thing much more threatening (aerodynamics help)

Lets change gears here and do big picture-small to recap? First we have heavily armed-shield-wall w/spear Hellen-istas going old school all around on the world known to the west. The shield wall w/spears thingy made light and even heavy horse, which had been all the rage untill this point, all but useless. Next, to counter the shield wall w/spears thingy, someone invented the ‘float like a butterfly, sting like bee’ (Italics) or the ‘smash and grab’ tactics (Africa and the East). Of course the ‘smash and grab’ used the elephant. So lets say, what would the poor man’s version of a smash and grab operation look like? OK there would be no elephants; but there was tons of the disposable young and dumb, and all the Perps-in-Charge (PIC) had to do was ‘point and click.’

speaking of 'half-baked' personal theories... I gots y'all something to mention - consider this:
just around the Dark Age of around 1200BC we find Naue Swords [the first of the full-tang swords who redefined the blade- no more handle breaking at connection-point], these found primarily in Italy and Greece, but moreso in Thrace. Skirmisher tactics begin to be developed as a counter to the previously 'shocking', 'aweful' new technology of chariots, completely changing warfare, using javelins and lightly (in comparison) armored troops who have mobility and can be used against chariots in a loose configuration.

[insert gaps of pre-history... myserious 'Sea Peoples' who challenge the Mediterranean]

And later in Classical times, Thracian 'peltasts' who are known to have influenced a good deal of Europe, just happen to come from the same area, using similar tactics... The Samnites and Italic tribes who are some of the best warriors in Europe for their time, use tactics (along with technology) that make them so, using the skirmisher model... Rome becomes great because of their ability to borrow tactics and military technology from their neighbors, the jump-start being the Samnites/Italics then later Iberians then later Celts (and so on)- it is also entirely possible that having to fight such ferocious warriors also made the Romans so adept in their art at the time... Thracians and Italics are both Indo-European, yet there is something very closely linked between them... it could be simple environment (geographical, or maybe non-Indo-Europeans even) which produced similar results, but I find it very interesting (and surprisingly underestimated). The Naue sword technology and findings/deposits just happen to coincide with the skirmisher tactics developing and also with the appearance of the 'Sea Peoples'. We know from Herodotus that the Thracians were the 2nd most populous people on Earth next to the people of India! I think much is overlooked in the Thracians and the whereabouts of ancient Thrace- which included Romania besides the Balkans. The point of entry for Greek and Italic Indo-European-culture-bearers has much in common also.

[added half-baked-goodness]

ever notice how close La Tene / Halstatt foci are to Romania / Balkans - ancient Thrace? methinks it is no coincidence... if we tie together the Celtic, Thracian, Italic, Iberian skirmisher-oriented culture - indeed interesting.

[cmacq]

Which reminds me, no one ever answered that crazy question about the Italio-Getaic wolf-warrior connection thingy??? And, how does one say Gundestrup, without digressing?


CmacQ

[Gleemonex]

I find all this stuff fascinating. Great thread! I want to comment on one little aspect though:

[B]The only practical use for the javelin is when its tossed at the enemy, and as classical mechanic dictate, the potential of mass is converted by speed into kinetic which translates into a bodkin-esque penetration of the enemy. Once the javelin is losed there’s no recourse, no recall; it either finds its mark or it fails. Its as if the javelin is a striped down version of a spear that was designed to fly through the air with the greatest of ease. So...

most simply put, the javelin as a naked type of spear was only meant to be unleashed and fly at high speed, with the singular propose to penetrate the enemy’s shield wall, or whatever it happened to run into. Again, why would the Gauls use the word for the javelin, to denote these Gaesatae warriors?

One of the main benefits of the general design of a javelin (I don't know the specifics of Gallic javelin design) is that it can be made of different materials to fine-tune both balance and weight for given effects. This adaptability is almost unique among projectile weapons -- consider such disparate examples as the weighted atlatl spear, the Roman plumbata, and the modern sports javelin.

let's not forget the primary reason why this is so powerful- gravity! 9.8 m/s^2 acceleration makes the small mass thing much more threatening (aerodynamics help)

Technically, gravity would only help if one were throwing a spear downhill. But its mass is a big help, easing the power transfer from the thrower's arm into the projectile itself and reducing the chance of injury for powerful and/or expert throwers.

-Glee

[blitzkrieg80]

Technically, gravity would only help if one were throwing a spear downhill. But its mass is a big help, easing the power transfer from the thrower's arm into the projectile itself and reducing the chance of injury for powerful and/or expert throwers.

this is true in that if the projectile isn't lobbed, there is less time for gravity to apply its attraction - which i did sort of imply (the lob) where there are many contexts (i was thinking more on long-range throws, since a straight-to-target is a pretty small range) yet it is important to ask 'where does leverage come from' in the first place, which allows one to put such force onto other objects, and the answer is gravity

Cmacq, refresh me on the the question concerning the "crazy Italio-Getaic wolf thingy" - which thread was that? sounds worth addressing, but my hippocampus hasn't survived much of my bouts from days gone by

[Power2the1]

The plot thickens

I've been thinking of this scenario and the evidence behind the Gaesatae's appearance in Cisalpine Gaul. Why would the Celts spend huge sums of gold on guys from across the Alps that simply threw a javelin? That doesn't seem like a very sound investment as really anyone can be trained to do this with relative ease and marksmanship. Were their javelin skills so great as to others adopting the name Gaesatae to describe them? Telamon tells nothing of this. The Gaesum was something more than a glorified javelin and that the Gaesatae were more than naked skilled skirmishers I would conclude.

I've read that (and I wish I remember where) the gaesum wasn't the standard light weight spear or javelin but was sturdy enough to be both a melee spear and javelin, or a spear-javelin you could say. When it was carried the warrior's fingers could wrap around the shaft but his fingers could not overlap by a great amount.

If the above description was similar to what the Gaesatae carried at Telamon then I think we can reconstruct part of what happened at Telamon. The velites carried lighter javelins that were designed only to throw at a significant distance. This would have obviously given them an advantage at skirmishing and or the range at which they can hurl their javelins when compared to the than that of the Gaesatae. We are unsure who opened the battle by advancing first; the Gaesate or the velites. It probably doesn't matter though. Regardless if the Gaesate advanced or waited for the velites to come within range of their gaesum, they quickly realized their gaesum could not achieve the same range as that of the velites. Getting mauled by this, some warriors chose to run towards Roman lines and died a warrior's death, others fell back in confusion as the record states.

This is just conjecture, I've no solid proof to back much of this up but maybe it's a correct theory in some ways. The gaesum is defined as a lance, spear, and javelin so maybe the word gaesum was applied to a large variety of Gallic spear like weapons and what the Gaesatae carried was a spear-javelin type weapon suitable for all of the above throwing, being used on horseback, as well as melee.

What do I base all of this on? Well, its mainly tidbits here and there. Rather interesting is the Irish chronicle a king who reigned at the end of the 300's B.C. returned to Ireland with some warriors from the continent (Gauls?) whom he hired. These mercenaries carried spears with 'leaf shaped blades'. Apart from this we know that the name Gaesatae are thought to mean mercenary according to the Romans; we know they are mentioned as having to be hired to fight in both instances; maybe they carried spear-javelins with large leaf shaped heads to them. I admit that all that is a lot to connect but 2000+ years later such proof may not exist. Still the connection is quite strong, despite being pulled from the historian's ancient pen and not the dirt of an archaeologist.

Thats my 2 cents at last. Anyone feel free to poke holes in my idea here

[desert]

While this is all very interesting, my main question is still unanswered. Did they use swords at all?

[cmacq]

Following Bread Crumbs to Telamon

I fear we may have to follow more bread crumbs before we can provide a good answer for young master Desert's question. Nice read about Telamon, and not to draw too fine a point, however I've recently relocated the battle field and its actually not at Telamon. It seems the battle occurred at a place called Fonteblanda situated astride the Via Aurelia, almost half way between Rome and Pisae. Straight line distance Telamon is located on the coast, about 2 and half miles to the west, and is separated from the battlefield by a large bowl-shaped bay (about two miles wide). Once you compare a good translation of the battle text, with the battle field site, its very clear what actually transpired there. I think this may shine a little more light on the subject.





CmacQ

[Taliferno]

While this is all very interesting, my main question is still unanswered. Did they use swords at all?

I don't have the texts in front of me but I don't think they are mentioned as using them by any of the historians. But it wouldn't suprise me if archaeologists have found a few swords in the area they were said to have inhabited. Like most celtic warriors the spear (perhaps a differn't type of spear like Power2the1 says) would have been their primary weapon, with perhaps officers/champions/chiefs having a sword. In EB1 the typical Gaesatae is meant to be represented by the Uirodusios (along with various other warrior cults such as the Diberga) whilst the actual Gaesatae Unit represents champions of the tribe. There have been a few threads about this subject before so it might be worth your while doing a search.

But the discussion going on here is quite interesting and I hope it continues

[cmacq]

I almost forgot.

Periochae: Ex libro XX
T Livius

M. Claudius Marcellus cos. occiso Gallorum Insubrium duce, Vertomaro, opima spolia rettulit.

Summaries: Book 20
Livy

My Rendering
The consul M. Claudius Marcellus felled Viridomarus, leader of the Gallic Insubres, returning with rich spoils (a term that means trophy armor and arms taked due to personal combat).


----------------------------------------------------------------------

This is another account of the Battle of Clastidium, this time in Latin. Here, Viridomarus is in Latin Vertomaro, or Britomartus/Βριτόματος in Greek. I also didn't mention that Clastidium was a village of the Anamares, and is the modern Casteggio located along the Via Aemilia (but this wasn't build until about 180 BC, so the Aemilia must have followed an earlier road). By the way Acerrae was located in the eastern end of the Po basin and Clastidium at the west end. Marcellus' route would have been about 100 miles (at 40 miles a day), so he likely force marched at least two and a half days. Finally, the Battle of Clastidium occured three years after Telamon.



CmacQ

[cmacq]

Bread Crumbs as Food For Thought

Right, maybe the trail doesn't go completely cold after Marcellus?

I also forgot the Cohors Gaesatorum, auxilia units, claimed by someone recent, to have been formed in Raetia, in the mid 1st century AD. I might have to research this a little more? And...
Vexillatio Gaesatorum Raetorum, again as the name implies, recruited in Raetia, serving at Great Chesters, Hadrian’s Wall, Great Britain, in the 3rd century AD. However, that unit may actually be Vexillatio Raetorum et Gaesatorum, found at Cappuck, Risingham, and Great Chesters, Great Britain, again 3rd century AD. Then Cohors I Aelia gaesatorum milliaria, attested on the diploma for Pannonia Superior, dated July 1st, AD 126. This diploma tells that this unit had men eligible for discharge, which were recruited around AD 101. The cohort may have been raised early in Hadrian’s rule, therefore the honorific title Aelius. These men discharged in AD 126 and had been part of the core round which the larger unit was formed. The Romans also had auxilia units called Gallorum, Hispanorum, Brittonum, Cananefatium, Batavorum, Illyricorum, Bosporanorum, Dacorum, Numidarum, Raetorum, Thracum, Petreorum, Vindelicorum, Cantabrorum, Galatarum, and many more. In Latin, these names do not indicate the use of a weapon type; rather they signify the tradition or ethnic affiliation of where the unit was recruited. So, the Latin use of Gaesatorum, doesn't mean a unit of Celtic spearmen. It implies 'those recruited from among the Gaesati.' Herein, the Romans seem to have usurped a Celtic tradition to supply man power to help run their war machine.




CmacQ

[desert]

Ok, so to be clear, there is no evidence of the Gaesatae in general using swords?

I suppose the next question is why they have swords in EB, but I'll take your advice and do some searching.

[blitzkrieg80]

desert, evidence is not an abundant luxury... did you happen to read anything CmacQ or Power2the1 posted? The literary references do not list equipment as if a video game player was the intended audience... some extrapolation is required, which has sufficiently been supplied.

It is a fact that almost all ancient warriors of Europe of worth (and technical / tactical savvy) fought with spear, sword, and javelin (and usually a shield) of some sort or <insert reasonable alternative to sword here for the more unusual cultures- same combination otherwise>. Lower ranks had spears because they are much cheaper to make, having only a metal tip and being much more simple in construction. [edit - i forgot, a knife would be possessed by many men if not all, which functions as an additional weapon of varying quality depending on status and culture]

Also, Taliferno describes the depiction for EB1 correctly- the Uirodusios portray the lower ranks and the Gaesatae portray the elite of what is referenced as a whole under the guise 'Gaesatae' in Roman literary accounts. The weapon system in Total War games is predetermined. 1 aspect will always be lost in a 2 weapon system representing an elite warrior with 3 or 4 weapon types.

[cmacq]

Ok, so to be clear, there is no evidence of the Gaesatae in general using swords?

I suppose the next question is why they have swords in EB, but I'll take your advice and do some searching.

Actually, from Paragraph 7, of Marcellus, as posted above, the Greek word I translated as 'full set of armor,' πανοπλίᾳ, actually means, 'set of [arms] and armor.' Besides a helment, graves, and cuirass; this word meant armed with a spear, sword, shield (seen as a defensive weapon), and a dirk, as well. I didn't use arms as I understood from the context of the line that the gold and silver decoration was only on the armor, so I used 'full,' to imply weapons. Maybe, I'll make that small little change, then again maybe not??? Then further, because of the context of the line, the word I translated as 'spear,' as what the Celtic king shakes, δόρυ, is in truth not a typical usage.




CmacQ

[blitzkrieg80]

I've noticed that 'arms and armour' are listed together a lot for 'equipment' or 'arms' or 'war-gear' in my Germanic language studies, CmacQ, so that is pretty interesting! is that a cross-cultural thing and not worth noting or is there more to this? I am intrigued... it's probably a silly question, like how hospitality, honor, fame, and gift-giving are all present among various warrior societies of 'Dark Ages'

[desert]

Gagh.

Note to self: be more specific when asking questions next time.

This is the end for me, then.