Brainwashing? Christianity seems to be taking weird steps, here at least.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Everyone could be saved, if they would allow themselves to be.

The idea of limited atonement stems from the fact that God has foreknowledge of who would or would not accept Him, therefore the atonement was suffered for the sins of the elect. If someone else was going to be saved, Christ would have suffered for their sins too, since God's mercy is endless. But since they won't accept God, as He knows to be the case, then Christ would not be punished on their behalf - otherwise their debts would have been paid, when they demand that they are not to be.

This arguement was rejected 1500 years ago by Boethius (sadly now little read). To suggest God has forknowledge restricts God temporally, because it requires him to have knowledge before he acts, since God is timeless there is no before and no after. Therefore God would not have forknowledge, because he acts as he knows, simultaneously.

So, while some people cannot be saved, it is only since they refused to be saved, and would have refused to be saved regardless of Christ's suffering.

If God is irrestistable then you cannot refuse to be saved. To suggest that God chooses based on those who would accept him is to sidestep the problem of those who would resist him. This is to limit Gods power, it's actually saying, "He knows he can't, so he won't try."

I've been thinking on the matter of unconditional election, and I think that it may be best taken as meaning that the salvation of the elect within their lifetime on earth is unconditional. Since of course no man could accept God without God's grace working through him first, God remains sovereign in salvation, and His grace remains irresistable.

However, all throughout the Bible, (even in the Psalms and other parts of the OT, not just the classic NT predestination quotes) people refer to God choosing them when He made them, long before they were born or conceived on this earth. God sees into the hearts of everyone, and He elects those who He will save based on what He sees, specifically whether they would accept Him. So He predestines those who He elects to accept Him within their lifetime. Coincidentally, this is why I don't agree with double predestination, as God does not work in people's lives to make sure they reject Him.

This is my current theory, my ideas change all the time...

I'd like to posit one more question to you regarding this. If the "elect" are God's chosen instruments, not merely those he saves, what effect does that have on those passages, if we take them as referring to those especially made to enact God's Will?

What I am asking you to do is to try to step outside Calvinism.

[Rhyfelwyr]

This arguement was rejected 1500 years ago by Boethius (sadly now little read). To suggest God has forknowledge restricts God temporally, because it requires him to have knowledge before he acts, since God is timeless there is no before and no after. Therefore God would not have forknowledge, because he acts as he knows, simultaneously.

I tend to think of time as a little line floating in space, with God himself filling that entire space; before the beginning of time, beyond the end of time, and all around it in every dimension, all at once. God clearly does have foreknowledge, what about the book of Revelation, all the prophecies of the Bible?

He knows how everything will end (or how it wont), and with everything we do (I believe) we are just carrying out the inevitable.

To us, what seems to be foreknowledge may simply be due to the fact that God is timeless. At all times, He knows all things, according to how they appeared at every point in what we regard as time.

If God is irrestistable then you cannot refuse to be saved. To suggest that God chooses based on those who would accept him is to sidestep the problem of those who would resist him. This is to limit Gods power, it's actually saying, "He knows he can't, so he won't try."

God could easily save us all if He wanted. But God chooses to act as the enabler in salvation - cutting us free from Satan's chains so that those who could have faith will have faith.

Salvation remains unconditional of what we do on this earth, God acts as the enabler for those chosen before they entered this lifetime.

I'd like to posit one more question to you regarding this. If the "elect" are God's chosen instruments, not merely those he saves, what effect does that have on those passages, if we take them as referring to those especially made to enact God's Will?

People can be elected by God for many things. Salvation is only one of them. Take for example Israel, it was chosen by God as a nation, yet not all Jews will be saved (at least not in the conventional way), as we are told precisely 144,000 will be saved at the time of the second coming.

What I am asking you to do is to try to step outside Calvinism.

Well I'm defending Calvinism here because it's currently what I believe in. That's not always been the case - I can't see how any Christian could at first hold Calvinist views, they take a lot of time to come to terms with and understand.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Crikey chaps, do you realise quite how barking that stuff reads?

Here I thought Catholicism was loopy, but "do good stuff, say sorry regular, and don't think too much" is at least an intelligible way to paradise. And you got pretty pictures, great music and the odd awesome cathedral.

Hay, I live in exeter remember, we have the most elaborate facarde of any Cathedral in Northern Europe!

You're right though, I am a complete nut, it's very sad, I used to be a rational, sane human being.

I tend to think of time as a little line floating in space, with God himself filling that entire space; before the beginning of time, beyond the end of time, and all around it in every dimension, all at once. God clearly does have foreknowledge, what about the book of Revelation, all the prophecies of the Bible?

He knows how everything will end (or how it wont), and with everything we do (I believe) we are just carrying out the inevitable.

To us, what seems to be foreknowledge may simply be due to the fact that God is timeless. At all times, He knows all things, according to how they appeared at every point in what we regard as time.

You are still giving God himself a temporal aspect, because you are implying he does some things before others, makes some decisions before others.

God could easily save us all if He wanted. But God chooses to act as the enabler in salvation - cutting us free from Satan's chains so that those who could have faith will have faith.

Salvation remains unconditional of what we do on this earth, God acts as the enabler for those chosen before they entered this lifetime.

those two sentances don't run. If God's mercy is universal then everyone is saved, if not then he is unjust. you are saying we are not equal before God because some of us can be saved and some can't, or that, again, god makes a choice about beings he has created, based on the way he created them. If God is the enabler of salvation he must be a perfect enabler and therefore everyone must be saved.

People can be elected by God for many things. Salvation is only one of them. Take for example Israel, it was chosen by God as a nation, yet not all Jews will be saved (at least not in the conventional way), as we are told precisely 144,000 will be saved at the time of the second coming.

Revelations has already happened, or has started. Fall of the Roman Empire is the trigger, rise of the Church is the beggining of God's Kingdom on Earth, which makes Calvin the Anti-christ, since Luther wanted to work within the Church rather than outside it.

Or I could give you a completely different interpretation. Biblical prophecy is the same as any other flavour, it never comes about the way its written. As to the 144,000 I think you'll find that's all of the Chosen, which is why Calvin came up with his doctrine of predestination, because that's not very many people.

Well I'm defending Calvinism here because it's currently what I believe in. That's not always been the case - I can't see how any Christian could at first hold Calvinist views, they take a lot of time to come to terms with and understand.

My experience has been the reverse, often people embrace a determinist God whom they later reject.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Hay, I live in exeter remember, we have the most elaborate facarde of any Cathedral in Northern Europe!

You're right though, I am a complete nut, it's very sad, I used to be a rational, sane human being.

Lets have a party!

You are still giving God himself a temporal aspect, because you are implying he does some things before others, makes some decisions before others.

To us, it may seem as if God is working within the limits of time, however in reality He is outwith time, but still working within this little time-line simultaneously. He must have chosen to create time, and to use it for His purpose. He isn't limiting Himself when we works within a time-frame, He's simply playing along.

If we acknowledge that time exists (if only within a timless void/whatever), then to say God would limit His powers by interfering within a time-frame would raise the question of how He sent Jesus to die on the cross for our sins, and How any divine revelations took place.

God's decisions were all made and certain before time existed. Now, He has created time and they're playing themselves out in this world He has created for us, all exactly as He planned, and how he envisaged with His foreknowledge (which is merely a term helpful for us bound by time, in reality its just as much current knoweldge and past experience to God, but not really any of those at all).

those two sentances don't run. If God's mercy is universal then everyone is saved, if not then he is unjust. you are saying we are not equal before God because some of us can be saved and some can't, or that, again, god makes a choice about beings he has created, based on the way he created them. If God is the enabler of salvation he must be a perfect enabler and therefore everyone must be saved.

In the flesh and in this world, we are all equally despicable before God. However, I do currently think that we are not all equal in the eyes of God before we are entered into this earth. We are told that He sees into our hearts - if He makes judgements based on that then our souls cannot all be equal.

It is based on what He sees in our hearts that He chooses to save us, to elect us for His grace in our lifetimes here, enabling us to overcome the flesh and the worldliness and to accept Him. Our salvation is not conditional on anything we do in this lifetime - since we can only do wickedness until God saves us.

Revelations has already happened, or has started. Fall of the Roman Empire is the trigger, rise of the Church is the beggining of God's Kingdom on Earth, which makes Calvin the Anti-christ, since Luther wanted to work within the Church rather than outside it.

Or I could give you a completely different interpretation. Biblical prophecy is the same as any other flavour, it never comes about the way its written. As to the 144,000 I think you'll find that's all of the Chosen, which is why Calvin came up with his doctrine of predestination, because that's not very many people.

It's unclear exactly who these 144,000, however I am very doubtful that it would be all those who are saved.

My experience has been the reverse, often people embrace a determinist God whom they later reject.

I suppose I could only really speak for myself, but then I'm not from the US Bible-belt so my situation may well be different from the usual.

[Sigurd]

There is a verse in Matthew which states:

For many are called, but few are chosen

(Matt 22:14)

It is taken out of context from a parable dealing with those that will be saved.
But the message is clear. The Judeo-Christian God invites all to attain salvation, but many will not (I am tossing free will in here) follow His invitation (he orders them killed). Only a few will follow the required steps that will eventually save them.
I must therefore, with free will in mind, call any doctrine that resembles fate a faulty doctrine.

I see you have brought up the 144 000 that will:

1. Be taken (12 000) from each of the tribes of Israel - Rev 7:3-8
2. Be with Christ when he appears on Mount Zion - Rev 14:1
3. Be virgins (not defiled themselves with women) and first fruits (not a final number) - Rev 14:3-5

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Thankyou Sigurd, those are good examples.

For myself, I will not even treat with any doctrine which describes man as dispicable before God. A Father who despises his children?

No.

You are still limiting God though, unless you accept that God has created the majoriety of people for destruction. Follow, if God creates every man and woman we cannot be other than as God intended, because God is perfect and all-powerful. So, if we are what God intended and some of us are predetermined not to accept him then we have not been created to accept him.

So, either God has screwed up with hummanity or he has created people with the sole puropse of tempting the elect and then suffering for eternity in Hell.

Sorry, don't buy it. That triggers the Epicuran paradox if anything does, and hence God ceases to exist.

My conclusion is that Calvinism either limits God's power, his justice, his mercy, or his knowledge. Therefore it is bad doctrine.

[Cronos Impera]

That is the failings with Evanghelical Christianity.It fails to answer questions of common Christian sense.
1) So the reason we need a priesthood is?
Answer:
To keep us from jumping horses and throwing the first stone.
The first annointed priest was Aaron, brother of Moses, and he became priest because the Hebrews needed a buffer between them and the confused prophet. So Moses gave Aaron some teritory and proclaimed him a priest to conduct rituals on the behalf of the people. People needed a priest to moderate between a demanding prophet and their worldly views.

Just think what would have hapened ware not for Aaron with his judgement and mercy for his flock. either Moses would have been killed or the flock would have perished taking Moses's signs litteraly. Some stoning did occur, but it was prescribed only in times of crisis when crime itself was capital due to the precarious situation of the Hebrews. Adultery became a sin only after it lead to the loss of human life and the threating of another one. If the adulterers would have repented or gone to Moses than the whole episode wouldn't have occured.

Having a priesthood isn't like establishing a tyrany or establishing a status quo. Priests must exist so that the flock mentains its mundane pleasures while attaining salvation and the Kingdom of Heaven. The militant Orthodox Church of Romania has long abandoned quoting for the Bible to stop people having sex...and through work and discipline has managed to brace itself for the mesianic events of the 21st century, like poverty, corruption and deterirating health conditions among the general population.

Some brilliant Islamic judges have even gone as far as to create "sex marriage contracts" that allow the parties to enjoy sex without legal or moral consequences for either one of them.

[ICantSpellDawg]

You are still limiting God though, unless you accept that God has created the majoriety of people for destruction. Follow, if God creates every man and woman we cannot be other than as God intended, because God is perfect and all-powerful. So, if we are what God intended and some of us are predetermined not to accept him then we have not been created to accept him.

When farmers plant their crops, are they looking to simply destroy them at harvest? The Crops are the vessels of growth, but the roots, stalk and dirt are seldom a part of the harvest.

Do you view destruction of crops as the end - and do you view the spoiling of the crops as the decision of the farmer?

People live and their bodies eventually die. They decide whether the fruit of their life will be spoiled or harvested.

[Rhyfelwyr]

For myself, I will not even treat with any doctrine which describes man as dispicable before God. A Father who despises his children?

No.

He doesn't despise our souls, He would love for everyone of us to come to Him. However, we are born as slaves to sin, and our actions must be pretty despicable to God.

Remember, God knows us before we ever come into this world. Those who are slaves to sin in their lifetime chose that fate. Those who are brought to salvation were elected because they would accept God. Salvation is unconditional on what happens in this lifetime, but God judges based on what He sees in our hearts before we are born. So really, all of history is simply the story of the elect being brought to salvation.

You are still limiting God though, unless you accept that God has created the majoriety of people for destruction. Follow, if God creates every man and woman we cannot be other than as God intended, because God is perfect and all-powerful. So, if we are what God intended and some of us are predetermined not to accept him then we have not been created to accept him.

So, either God has screwed up with hummanity or he has created people with the sole puropse of tempting the elect and then suffering for eternity in Hell.

My conclusion is that Calvinism either limits God's power, his justice, his mercy, or his knowledge. Therefore it is bad doctrine

God does not predestine anyone to damnation (I don't endorse double predestination, "those whom He did predestine..."). Yes, God has foreknowledge of everyone's fate, but their fates are not decided because of His foreknowledge (other than the affect His foreknowledge has on His decision not to elect them to salvation), because God's decision to leave them to their own devices is based on their choice. Of course when people are left to themselves, Satan is quick to enslave them.

Presuming we do not believe that every human will somehow get to Heaven, if you think that peoples fates beyond their lifetime on earth are based on their free-will, why would that make God anymore just than if He used them for His purpose (which is purely good in itself)? Either way, He must have known of their fate.

Unless you also believe that God cannot overrule the dimension of time that He created (to know the fate of all who He creates)? Yet time cannot have always existed, since God himself is timeless.

Never mind Calvinism, that is limiting God.

The arguments against Calvinism seem to be based on the belief that humans somehow deserve salvation. And yet we must acknowledge that without God we are slaves to sin, everything we do is evil, even if we appear to do something good it is for selfish purposes.

It is out of mercy that any are saved.

There is one good thing in existance, and it is God. The two are inseperable, God is good and any good stems from God. Everything He creates is good (in serving its function in God's triumph over evil), even if it does not always appear to us to be so. We know evil must exist. Because if it did not, then God would have to be limited as evil was overpowering Him in establishing itself. So clearly, evil must exist, even if only temporarily. Maybe if only to defeat the original sin, pride.

Which presumably arose out of a desire for free-will, to be independent of God. And still that is what theologians want when they interpret the scriptures - free-will, the root of all evil itself. They want to believe that if they come to God, it is on their terms.

Going back to the original point, God certaintly does not hate His children. He gave us the free-will we desired, and humanity on the whole reaped the consequences. However, those who God knows to have the potential to overcome pride (if we take it as the root of all sin), have with them the grace of God to ensure that they accept Him within their lifetime - that is what predestination is all about. A gift to those who would accept God. For a Christian, you can continue with the parent theme and recognise that suffering is simply God disciplining His children - and you can take confidence in the knowledge that God is guiding you towards Him.

Don't misinterpret me as suggesting that free-will does not exist - it is because of free-will that anyone ever had to endure suffering. However, that free-will exists before our lifetimes on earth - while we sit here everything we do is simply acting out the inevitable, knowing that those who accept God give Him their willing obedience.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Crikey chaps, do you realise quite how barking that stuff reads?

Here I thought Catholicism was loopy, but "do good stuff, say sorry regular, and don't think too much" is at least an intelligible way to paradise. And you got pretty pictures, great music and the odd awesome cathedral.