Remebrance Day

[Celtic_Punk]

I read somehwere theres a monument in Australia I believe that on teh 11th day of the 11th month on the 11th hour, the light shines through the roof in such a way that it lands on the plaque or something like that.


This was my 666th post...

[Shigawire]

I think there are oodles of memorial days for soldiers, which is natural in a macho society. But what people almost never drink a cherry to remember is the millions of unknown victims, of vast crimes which most people have never heard of. Those victims whose only representatives are a few specialized human rights organizations. I speak of such people as the people of East Timor, Nicaragua, Chile, El Salvador and the rest of Central and South America. I speak of Cambodia, Armenia, the list goes on.

[Gleemonex]

I'll thank you not to presume who I do and do not mourn, remember or respect on one of the very few holidays I choose to abide by whole-heartedly.

[oudysseos]

Thank you Shigawire for your post.

Gleemonex, I am afraid that I cannot join you in celebrating Remembrance Day.

Instead, I am re-reading Dalton Trumbo's Johnny Got His Gun and Howard Zinn's People's History of the United States ('War is the Health of the State') and thinking about the thousands of men who were interned during the First World War for refusing to kill another person. Between Britain, Canada and America at least a hundred died in prison, where they had been tortured. In Britain those who served their sentences had their right to vote suspended.

What I find tremendous about these men is their bravery in the face of almost universal revilement. The willingness and even eagerness of millions of young men to participate in the brutality, barbarity and horror of the war is something I cannot fully comprehend. The moral courage of men like Harold Bing, Mark Hayler, and Horace Eaton who endured beatings, solitary confinement, refusal of due process, and psychological abuse for their refusal to do so is something that I believe is more fitting to celebrate than those who fell in with the mad drum-beat of militarism.

I might as well die for a principle as for lack of one.

Reply of a Conscientious Objector sentenced to death for refusing to fight.

I also remember Jean Jaures, Bertrand Russel, Karl Liebknecht, Rosa Luxemburg, John Maclean, Willie Gallacher, Francis Sheehey-Skeffington, Zeth Hoglund and others in public life who had the courage to speak against a war that initially had almost universal support.

These people are heroes, but they received no medals and they have no holidays in their honour.

I am making this statement as an act of willful defiance of military authority, because I believe that the War is being deliberately prolonged by those who have the power to end it. I am a soldier, convinced that I am acting on behalf of soldiers. I believe that this War, on which I entered as a war of defence and liberation, has now become a war of aggression and conquest. I believe that the purpose for which I and my fellow soldiers entered upon this war should have been so clearly stated as to have made it impossible to change them, and that, had this been done, the objects which actuated us would now be attainable by negotiation. I have seen and endured the sufferings of the troops, and I can no longer be a party to prolong these sufferings for ends which I believe to be evil and unjust. I am not protesting against the conduct of the war, but against the political errors and insincerities for which the fighting men are being sacrificed. On behalf of those who are suffering now I make this protest against the deception which is being practised on them; also I believe that I may help to destroy the callous complacency with which the majority of those at home regard the contrivance of agonies which they do not, and which they have not sufficient imagination to realize.

No doubt they'll soon get well; the shock and strain
Have caused their stammering, disconnected talk.
Of course they're 'longing to go out again,' —
These boys with old, scared faces, learning to walk.
They'll soon forget their haunted nights; their cowed
Subjection to the ghosts of friends who died,—
Their dreams that drip with murder; and they'll be proud
Of glorious war that shatter'd all their pride...
Men who went out to battle, grim and glad;
Children, with eyes that hate you, broken and mad.

I knew a simple soldier boy
Who grinned at life in empty joy,
Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
And whistled early with the lark.

In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
He put a bullet through his brain.
No one spoke of him again.

You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
Sneak home and pray you'll never know
The hell where youth and laughter go.

Siegfried Sassoon.

There is no way to participate in a war that does not implicate you in acts of unspeakable brutality.

[Gleemonex]

Thank you Shigawire for your post.

Gleemonex, I am afraid that I cannot join you in celebrating Remembrance Day.

Then might I kindly request that you start your own fucking thread, since this one is apolitical?

-Gleemonex

[Gleemonex]

Well, here it comes. I would humbly ask any mods to delete posts 32 onwards, and lock this thread. Thanks to all of you who chose to respect my feelings and share a part of themselves on this thread.

-Glee

[oudysseos]

You invited me to post war stories that inspired me and other thoughts. Do you rescind that invitation just because you don't approve of my thoughts? And now you want to delete all posts that don't conform? How sad. Why not just delete the whole thread?

I have always been inspired by the story (which is never ever told) of people who had the courage to do what is right, regardless of the consequences to themselves. Is that not worthy of remembrance? It is my duty to remember those who paid with their freedom and lives for my right to refuse to kill.

[Gleemonex]

You invited me to post war stories that inspired me and other thoughts.

You need to brush up on your reading skills. I was explicitly clear in the very first paragraph of the very first post. Immediately following an apology for being late in addressing Europe in time for Remembrance Day, I stated clearly that this thread was to give our thanks and respect to people serving in the field, no matter one's personal opinions on war.

Do you rescind that invitation just because you don't approve of my thoughts? And now you want to delete all posts that don't conform? How sad.

This is not a political platform. You were invited to share your thoughts AFTER (hence the "Further...") offering a simple sympathetic thought to the war fallen and all people exposed to strife. You've yet to act on that invitation.

Feel free to consider me sad. This day is not about me. It is about those who came before me.

-Glee

[Shigawire]

Thank you oudysseous. Howard Zinn is a great man whom I admire and respect. I have yet to read his book, "A People's History of the United States", though it is remarkably famous.

I understand the concept of the creator of this thread feeling that the thread is his property, because he wishes to have a say in what should or should not be the topic. And I understand that he wishes to steer the discussion in the "right" direction (whatever that is). If the only acceptable thoughts on the subject in this thread are sycophantic sympathies, then what is the point in establishing a thread in the first place but to reinforce a dogma?
"Thanks to all of you who chose to respect my feelings and share a part of themselves on this thread."
Speaking for myself, at least, I respected your feelings and shared a part of myself. If there was some way to contort my opinion to "disrespect", it would still not be grounds for censorship. Such an argument would be considered a callous attempt to avoid confronting uncomfortable truths. Deleting posts and rescinding reminds me more of thought police than of a respectful society. I made a statement on the subject of a pan-jingoist commemoration of all the drum-beat warriors who have participated in a cult of violence throughout the eons. Whether they were in for a right cause (WW2) or not (majority of wars).

The reason I reacted was that I often see posts like these, and it disgusts me every time, for the same reason it disgusted oudysseos and other likeminded people. It disgusts me because one standard of remembrance is appropriated these warriors, and another standard is appropriated the unknown victims.
The difference is in coverage, frequency and scope of the remembrance.

There are essentially two types of victims in official history:

1)Worthy Victims:
The nameless soldier, the jews in the holocaust, the Kurds in Iraq - in stark contrast to the Kurds in Turkey, whoever is attacked by an official enemy.

2)Unworthy Victims:
The nameless civilians, killed by allies or client states, or whose remembrance serve no useful political purpose - those are easily forgotten were it not for arduous Human Rights groups.

These distinctions are not made consciously by the people who excercise these distinctions - but they are readily observable by an objective observer who may read between the lines.

[Gleemonex]

"Thanks to all of you who chose to respect my feelings and share a part of themselves on this thread."
Speaking for myself, at least, I respected your feelings and shared a part of myself.

My disappointment in that post wasn't directed specifically at you. I would have preferred you hadn't set off what should be obvious to any idiot is a political powderkeg in what I had hoped -- and directly and unambiguously implored in the first post -- would be a very simple and straight-forward thread. But your tone was fairly neutral.

If there was some way to contort my opinion to "disrespect", it would still not be grounds for censorship. Such an argument would be considered a callous attempt to avoid confronting uncomfortable truths. Deleting posts and rescinding reminds me more of thought police than of a respectful society.

Note that I have called to "censor" my own posts here as well. If I really wanted to "censor" the thread, I would ask that OTHERS' posts be removed, and mine remain as a bastion of righteousness. But judging from the length of the post you place in direct violation of even the TITLE of this thread, you probably don't understand what it means to close your mouth for five consecutive seconds in the hopes that others will think they've won and move on.

The reason I asked to close the thread, and note the prophetic "Well here it comes" at the beginning of the post in question, is that this thread was destined to become political grandstanding the moment someone posted vociferously and expressly to NOT celebrate Remebrance Day. See, we're arguing right now. Thanks for contributing to peace in the world!

The reason I reacted was that I often see posts like these, and it disgusts me every time, for the same reason it disgusted oudysseos and other likeminded people.

You're perfectly free to react. That's what the "post new THREAD" button is for. Of course, then you'd miss out on the chance to be holier than thou.

It disgusts me because one standard of remembrance is appropriated these warriors, and another standard is appropriated the unknown victims.

And it disgusts me that someone on a computer likely thousands of kilometres away deigns to tell me what I believe.

The difference is in coverage, frequency and scope of the remembrance.

So you waltz into a thread where we ARE remembering, to tell us about what we AREN'T remembering? You DO know that the easiest way to not express an idea is to shut the hell up, right?

There are essentially two types of victims in official history:

1)Worthy Victims:
The nameless soldier, the jews in the holocaust, the Kurds in Iraq - in stark contrast to the Kurds in Turkey, whoever is attacked by an official enemy.

2)Unworthy Victims:
The nameless civilians, killed by allies or client states, or whose remembrance serve no useful political purpose - those are easily forgotten were it not for arduous Human Rights groups.

How the fuck do you "know" I've forgotten them?

One thing is certain: You've forgotten about Wikipedia.

Enjoy.

These distinctions are not made consciously by the people who excercise these distinctions - but they are readily observable by an objective observer who may read between the lines.

Sorry, your post was too on-topic. Could you stray further please?

-Glee

[oudysseos]

Probably I shouldn't reply, but I try and teach my kids to speak up for what is right, even if it makes them unpopular. Actually, I was never going to post on this thread, but then Shigawire did and I was ashamed not to have said anything.

Gleemonex, I guess I'm sorry that I seem to have made you so angry, although I didn't swear at you, insult you, demean you, or attempt to curtail your freedom of speech. I'd like to know why you felt free to do the same to me.

I maintain that if it is appropriate to remember those who fought and died in the War, it is also appropriate to remember those who refused to do so. I find their prison service at least as honourable as the military service that Remembrance Day commemorates. This is no more political than any of Gleemonex's posts. C.O.s who died in prison did so in service of my fundamental right (as it is now recognized by the United Nations) to refuse to kill.

At this point I have to declare a personal interest: Francis Sheehy-Skeffington is a (distant) relative of mine. He was jailed for opposing the war and during the Easter Rising was arrested and shot by Captain J.C. Bowen-Colthurst of the British Army, although he had taken no part in the uprising.

So that's a war story. I tell it because Bowen-Colthurst is one of the people whose service is marked by national holidays in Britain, Canada and the United States (we don't celebrate it here in Ireland), while Skeffie's sacrifice is hardly ever remembered.

I also have to point out that the truth is never demeaning. If I mention the service of C.O.'s it in no way diminishes the service of those who did not object to fighting. Why is the inclusion of dissenters, objectors, Mennonites, Huddites, wobblies, socialists etc. into a commemoration of those who gave of themselves so threatening? Why can't we remember all the people whose lives were destroyed by the war? Who is hurt by saying that all these people should not have died so horribly?

Celebrate this day by all means: I never told you that you couldn't or shouldn't. I just wish that more than one kind of service was commemorated.

[machinor]

I think we should not glorify the dead, we should mourn them deeply. There is no glory in death, there is only death and each human being dead in war is one too much. In my humble opinion, no cause or ideology or idea is worth even one human life.
If I may quote from Stanley Kubrick's "Full Metal Jacket":

The dead only know one thing: It is better to be alive.

[Narhon]

There will be no need for alien invaders. We'll collectively destroy the Earth if we're not pulling together to reduce consumption, birth rates and taxing the environment. I don't see that happening, it's in our nature to exploit resources with a short perspective.

No direct threat to our survival indeed. Indirect threats obviously won't cut it.

I agree

[Narhon]

I think there are oodles of memorial days for soldiers, which is natural in a macho society. But what people almost never drink a cherry to remember is the millions of unknown victims, of vast crimes which most people have never heard of. Those victims whose only representatives are a few specialized human rights organizations. I speak of such people as the people of East Timor, Nicaragua, Chile, El Salvador and the rest of Central and South America. I speak of Cambodia, Armenia, the list goes on.

The reason we have a memorial day for soldiers is they willingly put themselves in danger, hopefully for the people of their country. I do think there should be a day for the victims of war, it is up to us to petition our congressman, ministers and all other representatives.

[Gleemonex]

Probably I shouldn't reply, but I try and teach my kids to speak up for what is right, even if it makes them unpopular. Actually, I was never going to post on this thread, but then Shigawire did and I was ashamed not to have said anything.

So now you're the one who is "right" here, huh? Ever wonder how the Crusades (which were wars, by the way) started?

And I wish you had followed your own wisdom, instead of Shigawire's.

Gleemonex, I guess I'm sorry that I seem to have made you so angry, although I didn't swear at you, insult you, demean you, or attempt to curtail your freedom of speech. I'd like to know why you felt free to do the same to me.

I appreciate your apology, back-handed as it may be, but spare me the dramatic talk of "free speech". I'm equally free to ask people to share my sympathetic thoughts. I would have hoped that this could be done without resorting to some final authority, but obviously you're willing to carry this all the way to freedom of speech, and to hell with anybody's sensitivities. "Macho" indeed.

I maintain that if it is appropriate to remember those who fought and died in the War, it is also appropriate to remember those who refused to do so.

Then why did you start your post by saying you weren't going to celebrate Remembrance Day? Did you forget the title of the thread as soon as you hit "Reply"?

I find their prison service at least as honourable as the military service that Remembrance Day commemorates.

Then start Prison Service Day. And if I disagreed with you, I wouldn't post there. However, I DO agree with you so I would post my simple and heartfelt sympathies in such a thread as well.

This is no more political than any of Gleemonex's posts.

Then how did we avoid arguing about politics until you and Shigawire showed up? Is it because you're such shining symbols of peace?

At this point I have to declare a personal interest: Francis Sheehy-Skeffington is a (distant) relative of mine. He was jailed for opposing the war and during the Easter Rising was arrested and shot by Captain J.C. Bowen-Colthurst of the British Army, although he had taken no part in the uprising.

Is your relative, who stood up for what he believed even when he faced death, not even worthy of his own thread?

If you really wanted to express something positive here, you would have stated it, instead of wading into a thread that represents the polar opposite of his brand of sacrifice, brandishing it like some holy weapon to protest about others showing as neutral and pertinent a respect as they feel belongs to the realm of Rememberance Day.

So that's a war story. I tell it because Bowen-Colthurst is one of the people whose service is marked by national holidays in Britain, Canada and the United States (we don't celebrate it here in Ireland), while Skeffie's sacrifice is hardly ever remembered.

You probably would have made a better impact if you'd told the story then, instead of going on about how you're too moral to celebrate Remembrance Day.

I also have to point out that the truth is never demeaning. If I mention the service of C.O.'s it in no way diminishes the service of those who did not object to fighting. Why is the inclusion of dissenters, objectors, Mennonites, Huddites, wobblies, socialists etc. into a commemoration of those who gave of themselves so threatening? Why can't we remember all the people whose lives were destroyed by the war? Who is hurt by saying that all these people should not have died so horribly?

Remebrance Day is a day to show our thoughts and respect to the war fallen. You flatly stated that you were not going to participate in this day. Do I really have to spell it out for you?

(edit: addressing your own edit below)

Celebrate this day by all means: I never told you that you couldn't or shouldn't. I just wish that more than one kind of service was commemorated.

Then why didn't you simply SAY SO?

-Glee

[Narhon]

Thank you Shigawire for your post.

Gleemonex, I am afraid that I cannot join you in celebrating Remembrance Day.

Instead, I am re-reading Dalton Trumbo's Johnny Got His Gun and Howard Zinn's People's History of the United States ('War is the Health of the State') and thinking about the thousands of men who were interned during the First World War for refusing to kill another person. Between Britain, Canada and America at least a hundred died in prison, where they had been tortured. In Britain those who served their sentences had their right to vote suspended.

What I find tremendous about these men is their bravery in the face of almost universal revilement. The willingness and even eagerness of millions of young men to participate in the brutality, barbarity and horror of the war is something I cannot fully comprehend. The moral courage of men like Harold Bing, Mark Hayler, and Horace Eaton who endured beatings, solitary confinement, refusal of due process, and psychological abuse for their refusal to do so is something that I believe is more fitting to celebrate than those who fell in with the mad drum-beat of militarism.


Reply of a Conscientious Objector sentenced to death for refusing to fight.

I also remember Jean Jaures, Bertrand Russel, Karl Liebknecht, Rosa Luxemburg, John Maclean, Willie Gallacher, Francis Sheehey-Skeffington, Zeth Hoglund and others in public life who had the courage to speak against a war that initially had almost universal support.

These people are heroes, but they received no medals and they have no holidays in their honour.



Siegfried Sassoon.

There is no way to participate in a war that does not implicate you in acts of unspeakable brutality.

Why hate the whole for what the few had done? That is like some of my family hating the Germans because their hometown was bombed. Except they were there. Seems some of us will always hate our governments no matter what happens. Those who died protect the conscientious objectors from those who would do us all ill. Also heroes? they shirked the duties they were called by their country to do. I have noticed in my country and probably the same in many western countries civic duty is a dirty word. I hear why vote my vote does not count, how do I get away from jury duty, and what is in it for me.

did they ask why or whats in it for me at Thermopylae? No they did their duty. (my tie in to make this post times specific) but true.

[Gleemonex]

machinor, Narhon, thank you kindly for your simple and honest thoughts.

-Glee

[oudysseos]

Gleemonex, I apologized for making you angry, which I did not intend, even though I object on moral grounds to war memorials. I still fail to see how my regret at not being able to join you in celebrating military service is so threatening to you.

To the extent that it was appropriate for you to post on this 3rd-century-bce-wargame forum about a British and Canadian national holiday, I feel it was appropriate for me to respond to an issue which is of profound importance to me. You opened the door here. Don't get upset if everything that comes through it is not to your specifications.

Are you going to apologize for swearing at me, insulting me, and asking a moderator to delete my posts? You certainly intended those. Is that appropriate behavior for a member of the org, much less a member of the EB team?

[Marius Dynamite]

I have a rendezvous with Death
At some disputed barricade,
When Spring comes back with rustling shade
And apple-blossoms fill the air—
I have a rendezvous with Death
When Spring brings back blue days and fair.

It may be he shall take my hand
And lead me into his dark land
And close my eyes and quench my breath—
It may be I shall pass him still.
I have a rendezvous with Death
On some scarred slope of battered hill,
When Spring comes round again this year
And the first meadow-flowers appear.

God knows 'twere better to be deep
Pillowed in silk and scented down,
Where love throbs out in blissful sleep,
Pulse nigh to pulse, and breath to breath,
Where hushed awakenings are dear...
But I've a rendezvous with Death
At midnight in some flaming town,
When Spring trips north again this year,
And I to my pledged word am true,
I shall not fail that rendezvous.

Written by Alan Seeger, an American who graduated from Harvard and joined the French Foreign Legion to fight in WWI. He wrote this poem and died in 1916. I only know of it because it was in the Gears of War 2 trailer.

[bovi]

Then might I kindly request that you start your own fucking thread, since this one is apolitical?
...
The reason I asked to close the thread, and note the prophetic "Well here it comes" at the beginning of the post in question, is that this thread was destined to become political grandstanding the moment someone posted vociferously and expressly to NOT celebrate Remebrance Day.

Or rather, the moment you posted the thread in the first place. How could you think that a thread about war in any degree of removedness could be apolitical? I suggest that you read your own responses and see where the first stone was cast here, Glee. Locked, upon request and upon necessity.

You may send any outrage to me by PM.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Thanks bovi. This was one of those threads that I actually checked on the close option but changed my mind at the last minute. There was almost a 100% chance this would happen and I should have just gone with my instincts when I first saw it.