Animal rights thread

[Askthepizzaguy]

Apologies if there already is a thread on this, but I'd like to open a discussion about it.

Question: What, if any, rights do animals have? What rights should they have? I have long pondered this question.


From the mighty whale to the lowliest ant, the senseless destruction of a living thing for absolutely no purpose offends me. Predatory whaling, industrial farms where chickens are crammed into tiny cages, the slaughter of cattle in "kosher" fashion, hunting for sport instead of for survival, or even just some sicko who gets a kick out of abusing his dog, whipping his cat at a wall, abandoning his pets or confining them and starving them to death, and even those freaks who get their jollies from pulling living flies apart one wing at a time... it's all very disgusting to me.

However, I'm not about to advocate throwing people in prison for stepping on an anthill. In spite of ample evidence to the contrary, I am not insane.

I see the militant side of things; such as the ALF, or legislation which could penalize pest-removal services or ban them altogether, resorting to violence or fear-tactics to get others to respect the rights of animals; to be horrendous and despicable. I don't really see myself as an environmental wacko or a militant fighting for animals, but at the same time I don't think that we should do nothing on these issues. I wouldn't advocate making the state care for and feed perpetually animals that are caught by animal control services, or force anyone to help a starving animal, etc, anything of the sort, but I have to believe one can be a lover of animals and still be allowed to eat meat, one can defend animal rights and not be an eco-terrorist, one can look down upon and penalize those who neglect or intentionally mistreat higher order animals.

But it's rather vague. Mistreating a pet or abusing livestock may have legal ramifications, but I would admit sending someone to court over accidentally stepping on a frog is over the line. But where is the line? What animals deserve rights? Which rights do they deserve? How can we protect those rights, or should those rights even be protected?

I am curious to hear people's views on the matter. Clearly this is not a liberal/conservative issue, a secular/religious issue, or a left/right issue. I know we have human beings to worry about, and more pressing and urgent matters of state. But to be an ethical, moral, civilized society I feel this sort of topic needs to be addressed. Feel free to chime in with your views; I only ask that they be respectful and not spam or one-liners such as "animals sux, burgers rool".

Have at it!

[Fragony]

I am all in favor of animal rights but less in favor of animal rights 'activists'. For example testing on lab-animals should be done only for medical reasons, cosmetic industry is a big no. When an animal is butchered it should be painless and with as little stress as possible. It is perfectly possible to locally sedate when castrating young boars. If you can ease things do so.

[HoreTore]

Oh my, I do believe Hell has frozen over, yesterday Frags agreed with me, and now I agree with him

Industrialized farming should be abandoned as a practice IMO. They're animal concentration camps, there are other ways to produce our food.

EDIT: Just realized that the english term is "factory farming", not "industrialized farming". Factory farming is what I'm against, not tractors and such

[edyzmedieval]

I am a Greenpeace and a PETA supporter. I always thought animal rights are important as human rights.

But where is the line? What animals deserve rights? Which rights do they deserve? How can we protect those rights, or should those rights even be protected?

The line is between logical and illogical/ridiculous. The example of someone accidentally stepping over his frog and sending him to jail, that's just dumb. All animals deserve rights, no discrimination should be made whatsoever. Endangered species should receive extra attention, as their numbers are dwindling, and we don't want to have even more wonderful animals on the brink of extinction because some retards (in my opinion, poachers - jail 30 years, no bail, stay in there - rhymes too, maybe I should do a rap song about it) want them for their fur or meat. For example, whaling is wrong, all types of whaling, including in small numbers. We need whales, and we can easily replace whale meat.

How should we protect it? By promulgating stronger laws against poachers, banning hunting (ok, maybe for rabbits, because we are going to be invaded if we do not control rabbit populations...I can agree with that) and all animals that will be killed for food, skin and anything else, if they have to be killed, they need to be killed in a civilised and painless way. Slaughterhouses where these rules are not expected - 20 years for the director, 10 years for each guy who worked in the slaughterhouse.

People still do not realise we need animals to survive. We need them like oxygen.

Miss Sarah "Pure Blondeness" Palin encouraged hunters to kill wolves in Alaska. Excuse me? Miss Palin I think you do not realise what's going to happen if wolves are killed. I simply cannot believe America was about to elect such a leader.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I knew there was stuff we agree on.

It's nice to step outside traditional politics for a while and bask in the glorious moment that is realizing (or remembering) that your occasional political adversaries are human too.

I saw the method of killing used by one kosher slaughterhouse, regarding cattle. Not to pick on the "kosher" people in particular, but this practice should really be re-evaluated and abandoned. I saw a video of the cow being put in a machine, turned upside down, and had it's throat cut open with a large knife and it's esophagus and so forth being pulled out through the gaping hole in it's neck, not wide enough to cause a quick death, but long enough to be painful and traumatic. See spoiler below.

Then the machine was turned back around, and the bleeding, confused animal was allowed to trot around, slipping in an ever-growing pool of it's own blood, ramming into walls, until it finally, several minutes later, passed out from the blood loss. Nothing was done to reduce the pain, and the animal literally suffered for minutes on end for no reason. One poor cow was still alive past the ten minute mark, just bleeding and trying to moo. Is it really necessary? Everyone knows by now my disagreement with outdated religious traditions, and I'd really rather not be called an anti-semite (If it's any consolation, I have reservations about every major religion).

I also find it unnecessarily cruel what factory farmers do to male chicks. Male chicks are worthless to the egg industry, so every year, millions of them are tossed into trash bags to suffocate or are thrown into high-speed grinders called macerators while they are still alive. That's rather harsh. Young piglets are castrated by having their testicles literally ripped off, without any painkillers, as well as other male animals. Guys, seriously, would you do that to your worst enemy? I wouldn't. So why abuse animals in this fashion?

And so on.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The kosher cow video. Just click on the video part on the left hand side. Some of you have seen this before. Warning: Explicit uncensored video of an actual "kosher" cow slaughter.

So we've discussed the factory farming stuff. What limits should there be regarding animal testing?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_of_despair

Harlow's first experiments into the effects of loneliness involved isolating a monkey in a cage surrounded by steel walls with a small one-way mirror, so the experimenters could look in, but the monkey couldn't look out. The only connection the monkey had with the world was when the experimenters' hands changed his bedding or delivered fresh water and food. Baby monkeys were placed in these boxes soon after birth; four were left for 30 days, four for six months, and four for a year.

After 30 days, the "total isolates," as they were called, were found to be "enormously disturbed." After being isolated for a year, they barely moved, didn't explore or play, and were incapable of having sexual relations. When put with other monkeys for a daily play session, they were badly bullied. Two of them refused to eat and starved themselves to death.[4]

In order to find out how the isolates would parent, Harlow devised what he called a "rape rack," to which the female isolates were tied in the position taken by a normal female monkey in order to be impregnated. Artificial insemination had not been developed at that time. He found that, just as they were incapable of having sexual relations, they were also unable to parent their offspring, either abusing or neglecting them. "Not even in our most devious dreams could we have designed a surrogate as evil as these real monkey mothers were," he wrote. [5] Having no social experience themselves, they were incapable of appropriate social interaction. One mother held her baby's face to the floor and chewed off his feet and fingers. Another crushed her baby's head. Most of them simply ignored their offspring.

A particularly telling passage from the article. What did we gain from this study?

I learned that human beings are perhaps the most creative of all the species when it comes to inflicting unnecessary pain and suffering onto other sentient beings. But other than that, I would suggest such experiments are complete failures and yield no real scientific value. Thankfully this last example was an experiment from the 1970's, not from my lifetime.

Where do we draw the line? I am not suggesting we don't experiment and develop cures and new medical procedures, but there really should be an elected official, one of us, in charge of monitoring this treatment to ensure it meets the criteria of being necessary and as humane as possible to the subjects.

Example: Any animal which must be destroyed (due to disease, injury, or other damage) must be euthanized quickly and relatively painlessly.

Example: Any test on an animal which will result in possible permanent injury, horrible suffering, trauma, or death, must have a vital purpose which saves human lives. This is not supposed to be about inflicting pain for the amusement of some demented scientist.

You know, guidelines of that nature. I assume we have some laws in place, I'd be interested to know what they are, when they apply, when they don't apply, and how they are enforced.

[Fragony]

Oh my, I do believe Hell has frozen over, yesterday Frags agreed with me, and now I agree with him

Industrialized farming should be abandoned as a practice IMO. They're animal concentration camps, there are other ways to produce our food.

EDIT: Just realized that the english term is "factory farming", not "industrialized farming". Factory farming is what I'm against, not tractors and such

The cruelest part is the transportation, it should all be done in one place, can't get around the bio-industry but it can be made more pleasant. Here we are working on a concept the pig-skyscraper, a great amount of pigs can be held there in good conditions, from raising till slaughtering in the same place. Sounds sick but it's way above the current situation.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I approve of the idea of vertical farming. If space is a problem, do what other smart sectors of our economy have done, which is go vertical.

With more space for the animals, perhaps the conditions don't have to be so cruel.

[Tribesman]

I am a Greenpeace and a PETA supporter. I always thought animal rights are important as human rights.

Well straight away we see a problem with the animal rights thing

All animals deserve rights, no discrimination should be made whatsoever.

Then....

ok, maybe for rabbits, because we are going to be invaded if we do not control rabbit populations

but thats discrimination against the poor fluffy bunnies
yet....

Miss Sarah "Pure Blondeness" Palin encouraged hunters to kill wolves in Alaska. Excuse me?

Ah the poor fluffy wolves , they are fluffier than bunnies so are special .
So if wolves are special does that mean I shouldn't shoot a fox ? what about mink ? should I poison rats ? should I squash a midge ?
Animal rights are as important as human rights ......what a load of bollox

The cruelest part is the transportation

Tell that to Noah , greenpeace were very angry about the way he was cramming animals into his boat , they were going to protest but like all the other humans they didn't have boats to launch their protest from

Young piglets are castrated by having their testicles literally ripped off

Actually you cut very carefully and then pull , if you don't you can damage your merchandise .
Other livestock is a lot easier and can be done in many different ways , but pigs is different .
So Pizza what are your views on docking and de-horning ?
What about tagging ? thats really cruel , you put holes in the poor animals ears

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Apologies if there already is a thread on this, but I'd like to open a discussion about it.

Question: What, if any, rights do animals have? What rights should they have? I have long pondered this question.
hunting for sport instead of for survival
Have at it!

Define Survival. I'm a hunter, and I hunt because..... I like the food and I think it's fun. When I mean fun, I mean ,I don't go and shoot a rabbit or a deer, take a picture of it with me standing by it smiling and walking off and leaving it there. Fun to me is, you go out in the woods, and if you don't get something, fine, and if I get something..... I have someone take a picture of me standing next to it, then we gut it, and take it home to eat.





to me, Animal rights is a joke. Yeah, I hate people who abuse dogs and that for no reason (I hate cats, so I don't care about them frankly), but still..... Humans are more important here.

[Guildenstern]

Question: What, if any, rights do animals have? What rights should they have?
where is the line?

I'd like to state in advance that I have not a clear opinion about the subject. I hope this thread will help me make one.

I just think we should err on the side of caution in ascribing rights to human or non-human creatures. If we place high standards (such as the ability to think, speak, or even to enter into a social contract) on the ascription of rights there is a danger than not only animals, but also human infants and mentally handicapped adults will be excluded from basic rights.

I will try to clarify my thoughts through other posts.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Question: What, if any, rights do animals have? What rights should they have?

I don't know. I try not to kill them unless I am going to eat them or they threaten me. I don't believe that people should cause animals to suffer.

We should show animals the same respect that they show one another. There doesn't tend to be killing except in defense or to feed.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I don't know. I try not to kill them unless I am going to eat them or they threaten me. I don't believe that people should cause animals to suffer.

We should show animals the same respect that they show one another. There doesn't tend to be killing except in defense or to feed.

How would you respond to those that say it's ok to kill animals for no reason, because animals kill other animals?

[ICantSpellDawg]

How would you respond to those that say it's ok to kill animals for no reason, because animals kill other animals?

Animals rarely kill other animals for no reason.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Sasaki has argued that we can't object to senseless deaths of animals because cats hurt other animals. I think you've offered a good counter-argument.

[Rhyfelwyr]

If I may sound so snobbish, I like to think of humans as being above animals.

However, that is purely in a moral or civilized sense. Animals feel pain just as surely as we do, and to inflict pain on an animal in the name of anything other than self-defence or the need to survive is shameful.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I'd say its as valid an opinion as any, and it seems to have good, compassionate grounds.

Senseless killing, by definition, is senseless. That makes it unwarranted, unproductive, sadistic and destructive. None of these things are particularly commendable.