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  1. #1
    Member Member Dutchhoplite's Avatar
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    Default Re: Naval/ Fleet composition question(s)

    At Ecnomus the Romans had transport vessels besides their 350 warships. With (about) 700 ships it is considered as the biggest naval battle of all times
    Last edited by Dutchhoplite; 11-15-2008 at 11:41.
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  2. #2
    Member Member Intranetusa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Naval/ Fleet composition question(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Punk View Post
    cargo vessels were towed. same with captured vessels.
    I doubt a wooden ship would towing another wooden ship.
    Is that even possible with a ship that uses sails?
    I mean, their cargo vessels were probably similar to merchanting/trade ships....they're just regular ships that are manned.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchhoplite View Post
    At Ecnomus the Romans had transport vessels besides their 350 warships. With (about) 700 ships it is considered as the biggest naval battle of all times
    Probably the biggest naval battle in the Mediterranean in the 3rd century BCE. 350 warships for a total of 700 ships doesn't seem that many...and really can't qualify for the largest naval battle.
    The wiki link:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Largest...tle_in_history

    Salamis 200 years earlier involved way more ships and more personnel.
    Last edited by Intranetusa; 11-15-2008 at 22:56.
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  3. #3
    Bibliophilic Member Atilius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Naval/ Fleet composition question(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Intranetusa View Post
    I doubt a wooden ship would towing another wooden ship.
    Is that even possible with a ship that uses sails?
    This was a common way of dealing with transports in the ancient world. Polybios (1.26) writes of the Romans at the Battle of Ecnomus:
    Astern of the line which formed the base [of the triangular Roman formation] sailed the horse-transports, which were attached by tow-ropes to the ships of the third squadron.

    Quote Originally Posted by Intranetusa View Post
    Probably the biggest naval battle in the Mediterranean in the 3rd century BCE. 350 warships for a total of 700 ships doesn't seem that many...and really can't qualify for the largest naval battle.
    ...
    Salamis 200 years earlier involved way more ships and more personnel.
    Did you even read that article?

    It says:

    The candidates

    • Salamis, September (28?) 480 BC. 371 Greek ships defeated 1,271 Persian ships in this decisive battle. Greek triremes had a crew of about 200 while their small penteconters had 50 oarsmen. With 1,642 ships altogether, it is thought possible that 200,000 sailors, soldiers and marines took part.
    • Cape Ecnomus, (exact date and duration unknown) 256 BC. Like Salamis, Ecnomus was also a single engagement where 680 ships were fighting in a very small area. Some historians accept Roman claims that Rome had about 100,000 personnel. If this were true, which is unlikely, it would make it probable that at least 200,000 Roman and Carthaginian sailors and soldiers were involved.



    The fact is we really have no accurate estimate of the total numbers of ships and men involved
    in those two sea battles. Polybios says a total of 290,000 fought at Ecnomus; this has been
    widely doubted. The numbers of ships at Salamis is constantly argued over. But it is certain that
    both Salamis and Ecnomus were two of history's great naval battles.
    Last edited by Atilius; 11-15-2008 at 23:41.
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  4. #4
    Member Member Intranetusa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Naval/ Fleet composition question(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Atilius View Post
    This was a common way of dealing with transports in the ancient world. Polybios (1.26) writes of the Romans at the Battle of Ecnomus:
    Astern of the line which formed the base [of the triangular Roman formation] sailed the horse-transports, which were attached by tow-ropes to the ships of the third squadron.
    Hmm, I see. I stand corrected then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Atilius View Post
    Did you even read that article?
    Did you read what I was responding to?

    I was responding to this statement: "With (about) 700 ships it is considered as the biggest naval battle of all times"

    Even if you take the low estimate for Salamis and the high estimate for Ecnomus, the total number of people & ships for both the Greek & Persians add up to be more than the total number of people & ships for the Romans & Carthaginians. (200,000 was the figure given for the Persian fleet by itself, whereas the high estimate of 200,000 was the number for both Roman and Carthaginian fleets)

    Thus
    1. Ecnomus was not the biggest naval battle in the Mediterranean.
    2. It was not the biggest battle of ancient times.
    3. It definitely isn't the largest naval battle of all time.
    Last edited by Intranetusa; 11-16-2008 at 00:05.
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  5. #5
    Bibliophilic Member Atilius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Naval/ Fleet composition question(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Intranetusa View Post
    200,000 was the figure given for the Persian fleet by itself,...
    That's not what wiki article says.
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  6. #6
    Member Member Intranetusa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Naval/ Fleet composition question(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Atilius View Post
    That's not what wiki article says.
    Oh no? Here is the exact quote:

    "With an average of 200 men per ship onboard, the total Persian naval force would be at least 200,000 men, without taking into account the numerous auxiliary vessels..."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_..._Persian_fleet
    Last edited by Intranetusa; 11-16-2008 at 03:31.
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  7. #7
    Vicious Celt Warlord Member Celtic_Punk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Naval/ Fleet composition question(s)

    try finding a better source than Wiki.
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