So, I'm not entirely clear what the benefit of one vs. the other is? In a stationary melee, wouldn't the one with the higher attack+defense total win? Who is attacking and who is defending?
Attack vs. Defense Ratings
So, I'm not entirely clear what the benefit of one vs. the other is? In a stationary melee, wouldn't the one with the higher attack+defense total win? Who is attacking and who is defending?
Re: Attack vs. Defense Ratings
Well, as I understand it, attack stats measure the amount of damage a single man in a unit can cause, while defense stats rate the chance of the defender (once again on the single man level) to survive an attack. Obviously the two effect each other, but do to various complications, a simple attack+defense won't give you clear picture of who will win in melee. The different animations used by the units can really effect the out-come. Also, things like charge attacks, missile fire, and armor piercing can dramatically effect the outcome.
Re: Attack vs. Defense Ratings
right, so is there any disadvantage to attacking with a strong defense unit or defending with a strong attack unit (if you ignore the charge bonus)?
Re: Attack vs. Defense Ratings
No, not at all.
The attack and defense ratings aren't set in stone though. There are plenty of other factors that may account for a difference between the real battle outcome and the theoretical stats outcome. In fact, some units with great stats are mediocre at best while others with lower ones can be almost unbalanced
"I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me." - Issac Newton
Re: Attack vs. Defense Ratings
example: 2h sword wielders?Originally Posted by TevashSzat
Re: Attack vs. Defense Ratings
I'll do a little example to illustrate how each plays out theoretically in battle.
Armoured Swordsmen: 13 Attack, 3 Charge, 8 Armour, 8 Skill, 6 Shield.
Dismounted English Knight: 21 AP Attack, 6 Charge, 8 Armour, 5 Skill, 0 Shield.
So doing the Attack+Defense comparison it is AS 25 vs DEK 34. But then factoring AP'ing the AS score would go down by 4 to 21 vs 34 so DEK should easily win in theory. But then you have a factor like the speed of the attack which isn't listed, so you can lower some of that attack value purely from doing less attacks. While in theory the attack+defense should mean the DEK would beat the AS its much closer and probably favours AS because of the slow speed of attack. If the initial charge doesn't wipe out quite a few enemy the counter attack is almost sure to kill a significant number of your low defense troops, putting you behind.
The main issue with 2 handers is missiles and DEK taking more damage so will typically be weaker by the time they engage than AS would be. For example vs a none AP missile unit:
AS: 8 Armour + 6 Shield = 14 Defense.
DEK: 8 Armour + 0 Shield = 8 Defense.
Thats substancially weaker, and if the missile unit is something with AP missiles it then becomes:
AS: 4 Armour + 6 Shield = 10 Defense.
DEK: 4 Armour + 0 Shield = 4 Defense.
thats even worse for the DEK going from 57% of AS missile defense to 40%.
Its a similar situation when facing cavalry (at least 2 hander can now hit them), the AP charge of a cavalry unit to a unit without a shield is devestating, where a unit like AS (although not recommended) can take the charge better and pin down the cavalry unit while your spear/cav get in there.
In campaign you also have to factor in other things more than just winning the battle. DEK will always lose a substancial amount of there unit in a fight, just from missiles while closing before melee'ing. So unless your close to a castle that can heal them your going to end up merging them often so you can fill the spot will a full unit like mercenary spearmen. This means they're hard to get experience up where AS might lose in a straight up fight to them but generally lose less men, hence you don't need to merge them as often since a unit down to half size is pretty weak but one thats at 3/4 is still pretty good and can last enough to be retrained.
Also the two units compared are at different levels. AS are level 3 castle while DEK are level 4 and the extra initial cost of AS to make is gone after just two turns so they will always end up being cheaper.
Do some custom game tests to see what 1v1 the matchups come out as.
Think of high defense low attack as "block and counter" style. 2 Handed AP high Attack low defense is hack and slash. If your big slow swing gets blocked your probably going to die before you can attack again. Hence block+counter generally just comes out ahead in a head to head with no other parameters (no missiles, no flanking, flat, ect). 2 Handers are meant for flanking engaged troops where you don't have to deal with there shields and only deal with half there armour, making a devestating intial attack that they can't recover from. Using a low attack none AP high defensive unit like AS to flank will only really affect morale and won't have the same instant effect of reducing the number of enemies.
Simply: High defense = main battle line troops. High attack = flanking troops. You typically want a lot more line troops than flankers.
Last edited by Lord Preston; 11-17-2008 at 18:01.
Re: Attack vs. Defense Ratings
The animation of the unit is the underlying strength. Many two-handed units have bad animations, causing them to attack slowly, letting the other units cancel their attacks, and even counter attack in the time it takes them to swing. In addition to that, out of all the animations the two-handers have, something like 2 can actually harm the enemy.
In terms of animation, lowly peasants are the best. They can beat knights.
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