And the Winner Is...

[ICantSpellDawg]

War in Iraq won? That's un-possible!

Tiny article that 75% of the forum will hate.

A US soldier is safer in the "war" zone in Iraq than he or she would be in the city of Chicago today

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Lag Between Networked and Disconnected

Greyhawk is right, folks who are just realizing the war in Iraq has been won are arriving to the party after the keg has been tapped.

Greyhawk on 7/17/08, "we won."

And for the record, ID on 7/16/08.

We believe the US has already won in Iraq. People may accuse this blog for being overly optimistic, but we believe we are being realistic. There are many, many reasons, too many to cover, why we believe this, but one anecdotal statistic sticks out that implies the war is over. Thedeath toll of US troops in Iraq in July through right now is eight. That is one fewer soldiers than died in the one firefight in Afghanistan earlier this week. A US soldier is safer in the "war" zone in Iraq than he or she would be in the city of Chicago today, which interestingly enough, may be where some Iraq veterans find themselves in the near future. This is also why we believe the trip to Iraq by Barack Obama isn't a fact finding mission to determine what next, rather we expect him to pledge US support for the Iraqi's through the upcoming election, talk about how good things are in Iraq, shift the discussion towards Afghanistan, and we won't even be surprised at all when Obama returns home to declare victory in Iraq...

The war in Iraq is over, it isn't war anymore, it is reconstruction and security through one more major election, then what we believe can be described as a "fading phase" will begin that disappears US troops gradually from the everyday lives of the Iraqi people.

OK so Obama hasn't declared Victory yet, but either Bush does, or Obama will. I don't know that I can take credit for being a sage though, I read Greyhawk and at the time was probably reading the same tea leaves he was.

As for Afghanistan, everything said on the blog in that July post still applies today.

What do y'all think?

[Lemur]

By most objective measures we won the war in 2003. You don't really "win" an occupation, that's not how things work.

[m52nickerson]

How many of Iraq's people died in the same time frame........sine US soldiers have armor and live on protected bases.

[ICantSpellDawg]

By most objective measures we won the war in 2003. You don't really "win" an occupation, that's not how things work.

Ok - it seems like we have "won" the occupation. So what you are saying is that by no standard can we ever win the Iraqi conflict?

We can never win now because of semantics?

When our primary objective for the occupation is complete we have "won". If fatalities are down in Iraq and we can scale down forces while the Iraqi government runs itself in a just and responsible manner...

WIN!

EDIT: It seems the word "war" has a more expansive meaning link

[seireikhaan]

Tuff- Please do not troll the members of the forum is such a manner by indicating they want us to lose.

Secondly- We haven't "won". Only once we can fully pull out of Iraq, and the country fully stands on its own two feet, can we state to have "won" the occupation. Are we winning? The situation would seem to be in that favor. However, lets not forget the number of militia groups that are essentially being paid to keep their heads down, as well as those being paid to help in actual combat. Once Iraq can show itself to have a government capable of flexing its muscle and putting the militias down, through whatever mean the Iraqis deem acceptable, then it can truly take the final steps to a "win" for us.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Isn't the reason both candidates agreed to withdraw us troops in the near future because violence was winding down?

[ICantSpellDawg]

Isn't the reason both candidates agreed to withdraw us troops in the near future because violence was winding down?

Yes. I just want to hear you guys say it.

It is tricky; We can't leave until we've won and we can't win until we've left.

I like to think more simplistically about this situation.

[BigTex]

Tuff- Please do not troll the members of the forum is such a manner by indicating they want us to lose.

Secondly- We haven't "won". Only once we can fully pull out of Iraq, and the country fully stands on its own two feet, can we state to have "won" the occupation. Are we winning? The situation would seem to be in that favor. However, lets not forget the number of militia groups that are essentially being paid to keep their heads down, as well as those being paid to help in actual combat. Once Iraq can show itself to have a government capable of flexing its muscle and putting the militias down, through whatever mean the Iraqis deem acceptable, then it can truly take the final steps to a "win" for us.

By those standards we have never won WWII. The war in Iraq was won, the occupation and stabalization of the country though is a different matter. I'll agree though that it's getting alot better there, and hopefully with continued support it will stand on it's own. With Obama having won the presidency though I doubt we'll stay. He'll try and abandon them as quickly as possible, leaving the monsters we loosed to tear that country apart, what a guy.

[ICantSpellDawg]

With Obama having won the presidency though I doubt we'll stay. He'll try and abandon them as quickly as possible, leaving the monsters we loosed to tear that country apart, what a guy.

I don't think so. I think it will be the difference between stopping at the end of the yellow light or at the beginning of the red light.

I believe that we will be there as long under Obama as we would have been under McCain. I believe that we will still have little consultant forces in Iraq for some time. Obama will start to pull out slightly before McCain would have.

Obama isn't stupid, but I won't defend his constituency that called for immediate withdrawl.

[Lemur]

When our primary objective for the occupation is complete we have "won". If fatalities are down in Iraq and we can scale down forces while the Iraqi government runs itself in a just and responsible manner...

And you have just demonstrated the rather arbitrary nature of declaring a win in the current occupation. What, exactly is our "primary objective"? Is it to create a stable democracy? Is it to create an environment with a certail level of violence? Is it to improve the standard of living in Iraq? Is it to heal the differences between Sunni, Shia and Kurd?

Iraq is a bottomless hole that would happily swallow all of our good intentions. As I said, we won the war already, five years ago. If you feel that we've passed some golden mark that allows you to declare victory again, then by all means, do so. I'll spring for confetti if you'll buy the champagne.

It seems the word "war" has a more expansive meaning link

Too funny! From your link:

[ICantSpellDawg]

Iraq is a bottomless hole that would happily swallow all of our good intentions. As I said, we won the war already, five years ago. If you feel that we've passed some golden mark that allows you to declare victory again, then by all means, do so. I'll spring for confetti if you'll buy the champagne.

Life is a string of victories and defeats. We've won once, we are winning again at a new challenge. Iraq is far from bottomless.

The world will be better off once we get the new Iraq off of the ground.

[Lemur]

Iraq is far from bottomless.

Heh, tell it to the Brits.

[Lemur]

EDIT: It seems the word "war" has a more expansive meaning link

This link of yours is the freakiest thing I've seen all day. First it told me there were no definitions for "war," then it listed twelve, and now it's trying to relate to me in some weird way I can't fathom ...

[KarlXII]

LOL@ "TAKE THAT COMMIE DEFEATIST FRENCHMEN!"

[PBI]

War in Iraq won? That's un-possible!

Tiny article that 75% of the forum will hate.

Why exactly would we hate it? I have heard these claims and implications that those who opposed the invasion of Iraq want the Coalition to lose or are somehow supporters of Saddam or Al Qaeda made with depressing regularity over the last 6 years. Are you seriously saying that you still don't understand the reasons why so many people were opposed to the Iraq war?

Still, the apparent progress in Iraq is certainly good news. A Pyrrhic victory, which is the best that can be achieved now, is certainly better than a defeat, and a stabilization of the situation in Iraq to the point where we can withdraw significant numbers of troops would allow us to focus on winning the real battle in Afghanistan, which should have been the focus all along.

I'm not quite sure of the cause for the triumphalism however. There's still plenty of danger of things going horribly wrong in Iraq so to be claiming the war is "won" does rather smack of counting chickens before they are hatched. And even the situation does continue to improve, it still wouldn't be a vindication of the initial invasion or the Bush doctrine; my objections to the war were always more fundamental than simply the fact it was going badly.

[Fragony]

Compared to the situation a few years ago I would consider the current one a major succes. Credit where it's due.

[Tribesman]

winner
what a pile of tripe

Iraq has been won if you redefine the vast majority of the objectives set out by the US at the start of the war , just like the surge has been a success if you ignore nearly all of the aims of the surge .
I like how the blogger says you are just one more major election away from victory , hmmmmmm..... one more election ......that was supposed to be in october wasn't it , it didn't happen did it , why didn't it happen ?
But its OK because they are having an election , they have set another date , though it isn't going to be the major election that they are supposed to have already had is it , can anyone explain why the major election isn't happening ?
Once you can explain that you should be able to understand why the claim of a win is such a joke .


Nice blog though Tuff , go through the archives and see how many times that blog has declared victory since 2003 .

The war in Iraq was won, the occupation and stabalization of the country though is a different matter.

That is where you are wrong Tex , the stabilisation of Iraq was the major objective of the war ...an Iraq that is free and democratic , an Iraq that doesn't have torture and exectution of dissidents , an Iraq that isn't a threat to its neighbours , an Iraq that isn't a refuge for terrorists , an Iraq that is a beacon that shines as an example throughout the region .

BTW now that the new revised SOFA has got cabinet approval , does the fact that the cabinet wouldn't give their approval until Sistani said it was OK mean that this "democracy" is really a theocracy like Iran with an Iranian backed mullah running the show as supreme leader ?