Poll: Is it time for the UK to join the euro?

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  1. #1
    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is it time for the UK to join the euro?

    Can someone explain to me why the UK didn't join in the first place? Was it a sort-of England trying to pretend they aren't really European thing?
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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is it time for the UK to join the euro?

    The problem isn't the currency, it's the "leadership":

    Boom years: keep debt at a constant percentage of GDP - i.e. it can creep up
    Bust years: spend to stimulate economy - i.e. it can surge up

    When are the years we try to run as a surplus?

    Any currency with this outlook is in trouble - any country with this outlook is in trouble. The budget needs to be drastically altered. my preferences would be the two wars we are currently in - unless other countries want to pay us to fight, slim down the Civil service and cut social support in many areas.

    The currency looses value helps to increase imports and make the country - temporarily - more attractive to investors and for exports. Sure, imports are more expensive - but we need to reduce these in any case as we as a country have lived beyond our means for years.

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    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is it time for the UK to join the euro?

    Spot on Rory.

    The 'Great Leader' is often touted as the bestest Chancellor of the Exchequer that we've ever had, despite the fact that anyone with more than one brain cell can see that he's not fit to run a whelk stall. There was an article in the Times yesterday written by John Major (another 'not up to the job' man) in which he makes several good points...

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Sixteen years ago an economic gale blew away a vital part of my economic strategy; now, a more comprehensive storm has undone the entire economic strategy of the Labour Government.

    In the days of the late-lamented Prudence, the Chancellor of the Exchequer at the time, promised an end to “boom and bust”. As Prime Minister that promise must haunt Gordon Brown, for he knows that - as Chancellor - he was culpable for the domestic circumstances that contribute to our dire economic plight.

    Who ignored the debt spiral as it built up? Who weakened regulation and allowed Northern Rock to offer 125 per cent mortgages? Who diminished Bank of England control over our banking system? Who wrecked final-salary pensions with a £5 billion-a-year tax levy? Who ignored the risks of the house price and equity boom? A glance in the mirror shows him the culprit.

    The Prime Minister admits to none of this but asserts that our present woes are due entirely to “an international crisis begun in America”. He repeats this mantra so often that he may have come to believe it. But no one else should. A large part of the crisis now engulfing us is home-grown in the Treasury and No10. The UK would be facing recession and a house price collapse without any international dimension. New Labour has as much financial blood on its hands as any erring banker on either side of the Atlantic.
    Background
    No theory can stop recurrent boom and bust
    Cameron: Brown's had his boom, now he's bust
    How far can Brown claim credit for quick fix?
    Brown hits back: this is no time for a novice

    Last year, at the Mansion House, the Prime Minister spoke of “an era that history will record as the beginning of a new golden age for the City of London”. Nemesis must have smirked. Within months there was the first run on a UK bank for 100 years, and the collapse of Northern Rock. Since then, the taxpayer has been called upon repeatedly to rescue our once-secure banking system.

    Yet ministers foresaw nothing of what was building up and, to judge by their inaction, understood even less. Their failure to do so is one reason the future is bleak for so many who did not profit from the boom, but will surely suffer from the bust.

    House prices are falling at the fastest rate since records began. Every home is losing value, but the plight of the elderly is especially heart-rending. Many who planned to boost their retirement income by trading down to release a cash nest egg have had their hopes dashed. The soon-to-retire face a double whammy: not only has the value of property fallen, but their pension funds - already weakened by tax levies - have also been cut in value by 30 per cent or more.

    Hundreds of thousands of elderly people did everything possible - without state benefits - to secure their future. Now, the crisis cut in interest rates is likely to reduce their income even further.

    At the heart of the troubles is debt. Debt has been this Government's biggest growth industry. Annual borrowing - even at the beginning of the recession - is at record levels: no comparable country is in a worse position.

    When Mr Brown claims that national debt is lower than many such countries, he is being less than candid. He knows he is excluding long-term liabilities such as £100 billion of private finance debt, our unfunded public sector pensions and the debts of Network Rail and Bradford & Bingley. Once these are taken into account, our true debt is nearly three times higher - at a shocking £76,000 for every household. The figures the Government uses to reject the charge of financial incontinence are as bogus as a fourpenny bit.

    Personal debt, too, has risen to levels never before seen - up by 70 per cent in a single decade. It is now the highest of any leading economy: higher as a proportion of income than any G7 country has seen. The Labour Government wallowed in the feel-good factor of this easy money: it made it popular, won elections, so Labour let it rip. The IMF tried - repeatedly - to warn Tony Blair and Mr Brown of the dangers ahead, only to be told it was “mistaken” and “wrong”. It was not.

    Mr Brown glosses over these errors. The UK, he claims, is better placed than most to deal with the crisis. But, if the IMF is correct, that is yet another juicy piece of fiction: it believes the UK will suffer the deepest recession of any leading nation. The collapsing value of sterling suggests it is not alone in that view.

    Faced with a blizzard of debt and a recession, the Government summons the ghost of J.M. Keynes and hints at further mega-borrowing, although whether this is for spending or tax cuts is not yet clear.

    This would be folly. Some distress borrowing is inevitable - recession will cut tax revenue and increase social expenditure - but if the Government appropriates Keynes to justify further massive public spending, it will be making a fatal error.

    What, then, to do? Most importantly, monetary policy has been eased. Beyond that, experience of the last recession makes me cautious. There is no pain-free way forward from the mess we are in. My heart says “yes” to tax cuts; yet my head tells me that, if we pile debt upon debt, there will be a painful day of reckoning. Today's unfunded tax cut is tomorrow's tax increase. We are not in a 1930s-style slump, nor do I believe we will be. It may be unpopular to say so, but we should be wary of mortgaging the future with even more debt.

    For 11 years Mr Brown has claimed personal credit for the economy that Labour inherited but the Conservatives created: “We have had the longest period of growth in the history of this country,” he says, conveniently forgetting that the first five years of this growth came under the last Conservative Government.

    As Mr Brown heads towards Washington, in his self-appointed role as economic czar to the wider world, there will no doubt be a spring in his step. But come the next general election the public will not be so easily fooled, or forgiving.

    As with every Labour Government we have known, its legacy will be a wrecked economy that - yet again - will take years to mend.


    The last point he made is significant. Every Labour administration has screwed up the economy...they just can't help themselves.

    As to joining the Euro, it may happen but whichever government caved in and did so, would be out of office for a very long time. Especially if it was on their watch that allowed the collapse of Sterling.

    It's fantastic to watch Brown and Darling these last few months. The men responsible for the credit bubble in the UK, responsible for saddling our grandchildren with enourmous debt, responsible for lax, even criminal neglect of the financial sector, responsible for selling our gold reserves at the lowest point in the cycle, responsible for 'off sheet accounting' ala PFI etc, etc. These men, Brown in particular, swan around, preening that they are the saviour of the worlds economy, when it is they and others like them, that are responsible for the mess that we're in.

    It's like me having a glazing business. I go around chucking half charlies through peoples windows and then I go and put new glass in. At a price. Then I expect thanks for putting the glass back in.

    Another thing. Brown can't stop grinning at the moment. Not that weird Frank Spencer grimace he used to do but a genuine smirk that rivals Shrubs 'Oh my god, I can't believe I'm prezzie' look. He hopes the recession will save his skin. Screw the country, as long as Brown can chisel his way into staying in power, then all's well.

    Election now. Brown out!
    Last edited by InsaneApache; 11-16-2008 at 14:36.
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    Default Re: Is it time for the UK to join the euro?

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    The last point he made is significant. Every Labour administration has screwed up the economy...they just can't help themselves.
    Hm.

  5. #5
    lurker Member JR-'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Is it time for the UK to join the euro?

    who said yes, and were they british, because with respect; if they were not then opinion is invalid, and if they were european then their opinion is suspect.

  6. #6
    This comment is witty! Senior Member LittleGrizzly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is it time for the UK to join the euro?

    Im sorry, we aren't allowed to comment on other countries politics ?

    As far as im concerned everyone is welcome to give thier opinions on british politics... whether i agree or not...

    I said yes... im british...
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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is it time for the UK to join the euro?

    Quote Originally Posted by Craterus View Post
    Winter of Discontent?

    What state was the economy in when the Conservatives left Office.

    To answer Banquo's question:

    I fear a common currency shared by uncommon countries. The Eurozone may look good at the minute but we have seen that all those Chancellors and Finance ministers cannot work together. If we had joined the Euro and Brown had acted as he has would things have been worse?

    I don't know if the euro is a good idea over all but it seems to me that half the eurozone can't talk to the other half sometimes and I don't want tot be any more linked to that nest of vipers than I already am.
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    Formerly: SwedishFish Member KarlXII's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is it time for the UK to join the euro?

    Quote Originally Posted by CountArach View Post
    Can someone explain to me why the UK didn't join in the first place? Was it a sort-of England trying to pretend they aren't really European thing?
    I've been wondering this as well. I don't think they ever held a vote on it (forgot the proper term) as Sweden did.
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  9. #9
    lurker Member JR-'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Is it time for the UK to join the euro?

    Originally Posted by CountArach -
    Can someone explain to me why the UK didn't join in the first place? Was it a sort-of England trying to pretend they aren't really European thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by SwedishFish View Post
    I've been wondering this as well. I don't think they ever held a vote on it (forgot the proper term) as Sweden did.
    It was that whole inconvenient democracy thing, the people didn't want it regardless of what the politicians in power thought was best for us.

  10. #10
    White Panther (Legalize Weed!) Member AlexanderSextus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is it time for the UK to join the euro?

    As an american i would say no. England has long proven that it can be quite independent of europe, economically.

    While i can consider it part of europe, at the same time it isnt part of europe, however wierd that may sound.
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  11. #11
    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is it time for the UK to join the euro?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexanderSextus View Post
    As an american i would say no. England has long proven that it can be quite independent of europe, economically.

    While i can consider it part of europe, at the same time it isnt part of europe, however wierd that may sound.
    Spot on

    Having sole control over your currency is a very GOOD thing.
    Last edited by Ice; 11-17-2008 at 03:52.



  12. #12
    lurker Member JR-'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Is it time for the UK to join the euro?

    a little more background reading:
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/daniel_...terling_crisis

  13. #13
    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is it time for the UK to join the euro?

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculu5 View Post
    It was that whole inconvenient democracy thing, the people didn't want it regardless of what the politicians in power thought was best for us.
    Okay I understand that, but why didn't they want it?
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  14. #14
    lurker Member JR-'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Is it time for the UK to join the euro?

    there can be no definitive catalogue, as not all apply or are agreed with by britons, but here are some:

    1. the EU was invented by france to ensure that germany never invaded again, germany was a bit embarrassed and so complied, their neighbours thought that was a jolly good idea too. not a problem Britain has.

    2. socialism took a firmer grip on the continent than ever did here, and the consequence is a much greater enthusiasm for regulation in matters socio-economic. we freebooting Britons pillaging the high financial seas see this as a threat to our competitive advantage.

    3. the continent as a result of the 100 years war, the franco-prussian war, the first world war as well as the second and many more, has suffered centuries of political instability repression and revolution. how many continental countries have not been facist, communist, revolutionary, and invaded in the last 350 years? the EU therefore represents stability to many nations, not a problem Britain has.

    4. for an economic union to work, in the bad times as well as the good, there needs to be a large element of political union; who is the lender of last resort, why should germany bail out italy's fantastic attempt to make the euro worthless, etc. we don't necessarily want a political union, we have an exceptionally successful political model already, and no-one has demonstrated why an extra layer of EU federalism is an improvement.

    5. we are rich in absolute and comparative terms, will joining the EU make us richer or poorer? certainly no-one has persuaded me that joining the EU will do anything but reduce britain's competitive advantage.

    6. we have a history with, and a duty to, the commonwealth nations to assist them in their socio-economic development, and we like the freedom to recommend our political structures and structure economic packages to their benefit as we see fit. specifically, we dislike EU trade protectionism and the damage we feel it does to developing nations, especially given the skepticism with which we view aid programs. there is no question that greater involvement in the EU further reduces our options with the developing world generally, and the commonwealth in particular.

    7. similar to #6, there further we integrate the less free our hand to act as we please, which is fine if we acted in concordance with the rest of the continent because we amplify our message, but bad if we have divergent views because our own will be watered down among 300 million continetal voices. if Britain decides it wants to join america in invading somewhere then i don't want to euro apparatchik telling us we can't because we signed up to a common foriegn policy!

    i have yet to hear these many mysterious benefits i hear touted encouraging britain to join the euro, and i rather suspect that silence will persist.....................

  15. #15
    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is it time for the UK to join the euro?

    I would say No. If the UK joined the Euro, they would also joint the European Central Bank and lose control of their own monetary policy. This isn't a good thing for them. For example, say most of Europe is running strong, but Britain is having sluggish economic growth. The European Central Bank would most likely raise rates to cool the rest of the European economy, while strangling the life out of a weak British economy. Vice versa works in this situation too.



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