Great Britain is not an Island

[HoreTore]

and yes the UK is an island, no sense of geographical knowledge clearly

It should be clear to everyone by now that Louis is not talking geographically, he's talking culturally.

"Island" as in "cultural island", which is radically different from a geographical island, because trade, and hence culture, travels faster by sea than by land. And as the UK has relied and relies heavily on sea trade, so are they connected closely to others, hence not being an island.

Gah

[Tribesman]

and yes the UK is an island, no sense of geographical knowledge clearly

Obviously written by somebody who has no sense of geography .

[Furunculus]

"Island" as in "cultural island", which is radically different from a geographical island, because trade, and hence culture, travels faster by sea than by land. And as the UK has relied and relies heavily on sea trade, so are they connected closely to others, hence not being an island.

Gah

that is Louis' argument, but it certainly hasn't be demonstrated.

[Incongruous]

Obviously written by somebody who has no sense of geography .

Well it is pretty close, surrounded by water and detached by some distance from the mainland of Europe, it certainly has not stopped countless generations treating it as such. Simply because a Frenchie is having a song and dance about it, is no good reason to change such logic. We are not hurting anyone.

[Tribesman]

Well it is pretty close

No it is not even remotely close unless you define "an island" as over a thousand islands plus part of another island and some more islands for good measure while claiming others lack a sense of geographical knowledge .

[Incongruous]

No it is not even remotely close unless you define "an island" as over a thousand islands plus part of another island and some more islands for good measure while claiming others lack a sense of geographical knowledge .

Sounds about right to me

At least that is the correct summation of what the UK is within the popular mind, and thus the concept which matters most.
This sceptered Isle is a good piece of evidnece which points the belief among the inhabitants of the UK that they live on an Island, conveniently forgetting Northern Ireland and other little bits. Not really an issue though, since its the idea of an Island mentality which is really got at in this definition.

[HoreTore]

Alrighty, let's have a look at that "UK is a cultural island"-thingy:

- Language. How many different ones do you find in the english language?

- Music. How much british music is played in mainland europe? How many of the great continental composers(Mozart, Beethoven, etc) have influenced the musical scene in the UK? How much has music from the UK influenced the rest of europe?

- Architecture. Does the UK reject continental ideas in this area, and does the continent reject british ideas?

- Theatre. Same questions as for music.

etc, etc...

Answer these questions, and I can't see how you can come to any conclusion other than Britain being an integral part of Europe, as much as France, Spain, Germany or Italy.

[Tribesman]

Are Scousers and Geordies cultural islands ?
or should they be sent to an island ?
OK maybe thats a bit harsh but the Brummies definately should be sent to a remote offshore place .

[Furunculus]

Alrighty, let's have a look at that "UK is a cultural island"-thingy:

- Language. How many different ones do you find in the english language?

- Music. How much british music is played in mainland europe? How many of the great continental composers(Mozart, Beethoven, etc) have influenced the musical scene in the UK? How much has music from the UK influenced the rest of europe?

- Architecture. Does the UK reject continental ideas in this area, and does the continent reject british ideas?

- Theatre. Same questions as for music.

etc, etc...

Answer these questions, and I can't see how you can come to any conclusion other than Britain being an integral part of Europe, as much as France, Spain, Germany or Italy.

No. One. Has. Denied. That.

Yesterday it was stated that half of Britons have a foreign ancestry, any my family is French Huegenout in origin, but that is irrelevant.

What matters is the British perception of itself and its place in the world, which leads us to believe that we do not need the EU* whereas many continental countries come to the opposite opinion, both for rational and understandable reasons.

We are european, but we have no desire to become EUropean.



* By which i mean federated future alluded to by the phrase; "ever deeper union".

[Sarmatian]

Yesterday it was stated that half of Britons have a foreign ancestry, any my family is French Huegenout in origin, but that is irrelevant.

I just lost all respect I had for you

[Furunculus]

is it the french'ness or the Huegenout'ness?

[Husar]

So all that matters, as always, are the delusional thoughts people made up for themselves to get a sense of superiority, no wonder the world is doing great.

By the way, I can now get 0.929 pounds for a Euro.

[Furunculus]

that dratted human penchant for individual thought, the cause of so much progress and so much disaster. if only the human race were a collective hive mind with a single unified goal............

[Husar]

Eh, no, if only humans were individuals without that hive-mind-like thinking of nationalism that creates virtual hives they call nations which then engage in pointless wars over made-up constructs of glory and honour.

[Furunculus]

so if only they weren't human?

[Husar]

so if only they weren't human?

You mean I must be a robot because I never started a war?

[Incongruous]

Eh, no, if only humans were individuals without that hive-mind-like thinking of nationalism that creates virtual hives they call nations which then engage in pointless wars over made-up constructs of glory and honour.

WTF?

What on earth does this have to with the discussion. No matter how Humans see themselves they will always fight and kill, be you Tribesman or Citizen. It matters not.

What this discussion is really about, is taking the UK down a peg or to by trying your hardest to tell us who were are or are not, for no good reason.

[Husar]

WTF?

What on earth does this have to with the discussion. No matter how Humans see themselves they will always fight and kill, be you Tribesman or Citizen. It matters not.

What this discussion is really about, is taking the UK down a peg or to by trying your hardest to tell us who were are or are not, for no good reason.

So first you complain that my post has nothing to do with the discussion and then you complain about the discussion, which has a very good reason, having fun.

But I do not see how the discussion is supposed to bring you down, it's supposed to make you accept your european brothers instead of trying to stay alone on your little island playing empire when you aren't one anymore. The world wants to welcome the British but for some reason they don't want to welcome the world.

[Furunculus]

couple of points:
1. We accept our europeanness, but that does not mean we wish to be assimilated by the EU 'borg'.

2. We do accept the world, we trade all over it, more as a percentage of the total than any other EU nation i'll wager when considering trade outside the EU bloc.

3. Maybe a freudian slip on your part, but the EU does not equal the world.

[Husar]

couple of points:
1. We accept our europeanness, but that does not mean we wish to be assimilated by the EU 'borg'.

Okay, maybe i got a wrong impression there about your europeanness.

2. We do accept the world, we trade all over it, more as a percentage of the total than any other EU nation i'll wager when considering trade outside the EU bloc.

Yes, that is nice, but trade isn't everything.

3. Maybe a freudian slip on your part, but the EU does not equal the world.

Well, it is the first step in europe towards the world government, you may not believe it but your great grandson will live it.

[Incongruous]

So first you complain that my post has nothing to do with the discussion and then you complain about the discussion, which has a very good reason, having fun.

But I do not see how the discussion is supposed to bring you down, it's supposed to make you accept your european brothers instead of trying to stay alone on your little island playing empire when you aren't one anymore. The world wants to welcome the British but for some reason they don't want to welcome the world.

Oh please, I am not and niether are my countrymen playing Empire and niether are we closing ourselves off to the World, you know this and what you posted was garbage, I have not enied the UK as being part of Europe, its just that as far as I and the vast majority of my fellows are concerned, it is an Island.

What this boils down to as it seems to me, is about some people being all upset by our continued national narrative of an island, part of Europe, but not bowed to the same continental winds as you are, somehow different.

In effect, a petty grievance and nothing more.

[Furunculus]

Okay, maybe i got a wrong impression there about your europeanness.

Yes, that is nice, but trade isn't everything.

Well, it is the first step in europe towards the world government, you may not believe it but your great grandson will live it.

very nice of you to admit it.

so as well as trading with the world, and travelling in droves all over it, and acting as a massive hub for education from other parts of the world, we are still lacking a certain something?
perhaps we should have mandatory world empathy sessions set-up in every village across the land to ensure we are suitably 'nice' world citizens.

i certainly hope not!

[Louis VI the Fat]

The topic of this thread is not 'the UK must/musn't be a member of the EU/Euro/European federation'. The topic deals with the step that precedes that. With the myths that surround and cloud the debate about the EU in Britain. The subject is to rubbish several of these national myths about Britain.
These myths play a large part in the British debate about the EU. Which, of course, is why I brought them up. That is only the relevance of this thread and the topic, but not the topic itself.

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A box of crayons.

Each one is different. But, none can claim to be unique in being different, since all of them are different from one another. This is the fallacy.

There is no such thing as 'this set is divided in two: a singular pink crayon and the continent of the other eleven crayons'. Even if indeed the pinky crayon can rightfully claim to be different from all the others.

[Husar]

That's a nice box of crayons.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I made you a drawing with them!

[Justiciar]

You could also say that they're all unique. My brother compulsively assorted his pens and pencils by colour, keeping them seperate so that he wouldn't have to fuddle his way through the chaotic jumble. I believe he still does this.. poor swine.

I don't believe anyone in this thread has meant to say that the mighty crayon of Britain hovers beyond the rest in a hallowed none-European packet of its own; only that its distinct hue means that - as with my brother - it and all other crayons should be kept seperate. This doesn't mean they cease to be crayons and instead become unique utensils, but rather that they aren't kept tightly bound into a single card-and-plastic prison rubbing up against one another and getting chalky bits in all the wrong places!

I personally just throw all my pencils in a single draw. If I had any skill, I'd thereby be able to whip them all out at once and finish a work of art in little-to-no time, with minimal fuss. And lets face it.. who has room for a score of bickering pencil cases? Not I. My wardrobe is small, as is Europe.

...

For I am Justiciar, Ruiner of Metaphors!

[Incongruous]

You could also say that they're all unique. My brother compulsively assorted his pens and pencils by colour, keeping them seperate so that he wouldn't have to fuddle his way through the chaotic jumble. I believe he still does this.. poor swine.

I don't believe anyone in this thread has meant to say that the mighty crayon of Britain hovers beyond the rest in a hallowed none-European packet of its own; only that its distinct hue means that - as with my brother - it and all other crayons should be kept seperate. This doesn't mean they cease to be crayons and instead become unique utensils, but rather that they aren't kept tightly bound into a single card-and-plastic prison rubbing up against one another and getting chalky bits in all the wrong places!

I personally just throw everything in a single draw. This works fine for me.

...

For I am Justiciar, Ruiner of Metaphors!

I never knew crayons could be so profound...

[CountArach]

I made you a drawing with them!

[Husar]

I like that Louis.
I will put it on the fridge so I can look at it often.

[Boyar Son]

lol Britain's an island. or what is it then?