Org Mobile Site
Thread: Piracy makes a comeback
These thugs don't attack cruise liners. Though go after cargo vessels.
They do not want a confrontation, they want the first moment you notice they're on board to be the moment they tap you on the shoulder with the muzzle of their Kalishnikov.
Given the crew size on modern merchant shippping, the idea of an active defense is laughable. They've been working hard to get the crew of a mega-merchant BELOW 30 people. A half dozen zodiacs mean the pirates outnumber their opposition. Arm the merchies all you want, they don't have the crew to both sail and defend the ship anymore. In fact, history suggests that they seldom did even in the old ragwagon era.
Moreover, does anyone here understand just how difficult it is to mount a successful defensive watch under the varied conditions involved? Suffice to say, I believe the answer is "more than those 30 crew can reliably do in their spare time." Remember, the only ones on those ships now have busy jobs -- there is no need for "waisters" to haul ropes and run capstans. So any active armed defense would involve each merchant shipping, effectively, a group of marines. Some companies may be willing to go to such an expense, but most will just get the insurance and transfer the bulk of the risk that way.
The most effective "defense" is observant watchstanders and a radio. Manuever to make intercepts difficult and call in the "cavalry."
If their is a military solution to piracy, it does NOT rely on merchant ships trying active defense. Too impractical on a number of levels. Now, a navy Q-ship might make for a lot of fun....
Side notes: RPGs are a great weapon for pirates precisely BECAUSE they can't do significant damage to the ship. Their weapons are strictly anti-crew. They'd prefer to ransom you back with the ship/cargo, but any defense and they'll just chum you.
They do not want a confrontation, they want the first moment you notice they're on board to be the moment they tap you on the shoulder with the muzzle of their Kalishnikov.
Given the crew size on modern merchant shippping, the idea of an active defense is laughable. They've been working hard to get the crew of a mega-merchant BELOW 30 people. A half dozen zodiacs mean the pirates outnumber their opposition. Arm the merchies all you want, they don't have the crew to both sail and defend the ship anymore. In fact, history suggests that they seldom did even in the old ragwagon era.
Moreover, does anyone here understand just how difficult it is to mount a successful defensive watch under the varied conditions involved? Suffice to say, I believe the answer is "more than those 30 crew can reliably do in their spare time." Remember, the only ones on those ships now have busy jobs -- there is no need for "waisters" to haul ropes and run capstans. So any active armed defense would involve each merchant shipping, effectively, a group of marines. Some companies may be willing to go to such an expense, but most will just get the insurance and transfer the bulk of the risk that way.
The most effective "defense" is observant watchstanders and a radio. Manuever to make intercepts difficult and call in the "cavalry."
If their is a military solution to piracy, it does NOT rely on merchant ships trying active defense. Too impractical on a number of levels. Now, a navy Q-ship might make for a lot of fun....
Side notes: RPGs are a great weapon for pirates precisely BECAUSE they can't do significant damage to the ship. Their weapons are strictly anti-crew. They'd prefer to ransom you back with the ship/cargo, but any defense and they'll just chum you.
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh:
These thugs don't attack cruise liners.
Side thought: Think of the haul if they just picked up the cash and personal effects of the passengers. These thugs don't attack cruise liners.
Originally Posted by :
These thugs don't attack cruise liners. Though go after cargo vessels.
Well there was that Seabourn Spirit cruise liner , that was attacked by pirates with RPGs and machine guns , funny though since the heavily armed pirates were beaten by hoses and a loud siren . These thugs don't attack cruise liners. Though go after cargo vessels.
Originally Posted by :
They do not want a confrontation, they want the first moment you notice they're on board to be the moment they tap you on the shoulder with the muzzle of their Kalishnikov.
Yep , in the same way that a mugger couldn't give a damn if you have a concealed gun because he intends that you won't notice until it is too late for you to do anything . They do not want a confrontation, they want the first moment you notice they're on board to be the moment they tap you on the shoulder with the muzzle of their Kalishnikov.
Now I suppose an example might be needed for those that still can't grasp that guns might be the answer , and what better example than that kiwi Blake , a person whose actions have been described by some of his crew and the local police as not only very silly but downright stupid as they put the rest of his crewat serious risk , silly actions of course that led to his own death for the sake of an inflatable boat and a couple of watches ....So heres to Peter Blake , a great sailor but a bit of a silly bugger
Originally Posted by :
Is scurvy a chemical weapon?
Nice Is scurvy a chemical weapon?
I wouldn't know about lime juice but that concentrated lemon juice that comes in a handy little squeezy bottle can work wonders if you want to give someone a good kicking but are unsure if you are able for the job
Originally Posted by Tribesman:
Yep , in the same way that a mugger couldn't give a damn if you have a concealed gun because he intends that you won't notice until it is too late for you to do anything .
Now I suppose an example might be needed for those that still can't grasp that guns might be the answer...........
that is a choice that some nations make, their decision, their consequences. i'm sure they're quite happy with it regardless of what people of other nations 'feel' on the matter.Yep , in the same way that a mugger couldn't give a damn if you have a concealed gun because he intends that you won't notice until it is too late for you to do anything .
Now I suppose an example might be needed for those that still can't grasp that guns might be the answer...........
So what is the problem with piracy? Nobody is dying and companies don't want to pay for precautions.
It is building up Somali towns much more effectively than any proactive initiatives would.
If we arn't prepared to move in to the land havens then these are tax dollars being wasted to protect (failingly) cheap companies.
Maybe if we let it get out of hand it will act like a natural tariff.
Age of Piracy 2.0 rules
It is building up Somali towns much more effectively than any proactive initiatives would.
If we arn't prepared to move in to the land havens then these are tax dollars being wasted to protect (failingly) cheap companies.
Maybe if we let it get out of hand it will act like a natural tariff.
Age of Piracy 2.0 rules
If this gets out of hand, the price of various things could go up due to so many supplies being taken away by the pirates.
So basically the answer is to equip merchant ships with automatic cannons and missile launchers that will automatically target any small boat in a vicinity of 200 nautic miles? Or perhaps a MAD scenario where you put a nuke into every ship that the crew can detonate and send all those annoying pirates to hell? It's only a few deaths to make sure our prices will stay down but I suppose we crew the ships with the supporters of such great ideas so that they can make sure it all works out as it was supposed to.
By the way, at my work it is also so that when we get robbed we are supposed to give out all the money and call the police later. One of my colleagues who got robbed before said it's usually really fast and the robbers will even jump over the counter etc. How anyone could possbly think about getting a wepon when one is already aimed at their head is beyond me but go ahead, it's funny to read about the great and heroic battles of tankers vs. pirates.
By the way, at my work it is also so that when we get robbed we are supposed to give out all the money and call the police later. One of my colleagues who got robbed before said it's usually really fast and the robbers will even jump over the counter etc. How anyone could possbly think about getting a wepon when one is already aimed at their head is beyond me but go ahead, it's funny to read about the great and heroic battles of tankers vs. pirates.
Originally Posted by Husar:
So basically the answer is to equip merchant ships with automatic cannons and missile launchers that will automatically target any small boat in a vicinity of 200 nautic miles? Or perhaps a MAD scenario where you put a nuke into every ship that the crew can detonate and send all those annoying pirates to hell? It's only a few deaths to make sure our prices will stay down but I suppose we crew the ships with the supporters of such great ideas so that they can make sure it all works out as it was supposed to....
I didn't say that we should equip the ships (whether that's good or not (and whether you were talking to me or not)). I'm just saying the effects of piracy.So basically the answer is to equip merchant ships with automatic cannons and missile launchers that will automatically target any small boat in a vicinity of 200 nautic miles? Or perhaps a MAD scenario where you put a nuke into every ship that the crew can detonate and send all those annoying pirates to hell? It's only a few deaths to make sure our prices will stay down but I suppose we crew the ships with the supporters of such great ideas so that they can make sure it all works out as it was supposed to....
There is principle and then there is reality. The reality is than seamen don't want to die and it isn't their stuff, so they won't fight.
RPGs are a big concern as it renders defending argument mute - unless they want a sinking ship. Lets look for bright sides. This isn't our stuff - it hurts our competitors and increases the cost of imports against our own products. - to a much lesser extent our exports. It probably will contribute to growth in defense products
Does anyone know what, besides the obvious, we (americans) transport over there back and forth?
RPGs are a big concern as it renders defending argument mute - unless they want a sinking ship. Lets look for bright sides. This isn't our stuff - it hurts our competitors and increases the cost of imports against our own products. - to a much lesser extent our exports. It probably will contribute to growth in defense products
Does anyone know what, besides the obvious, we (americans) transport over there back and forth?
Originally Posted by :
Does anyone know what, besides the obvious, we (americans) transport over there back and forth?
Anything and everything , that fella with the shovel sure does get a lot of sightseers looking at his hole . The only things that don't go to the hole are those that are too big , but some bright spark wants them big sightseers too so is getting a shovel to make the hole 4ft. deeper .Does anyone know what, besides the obvious, we (americans) transport over there back and forth?
I blame hollywood myself , that Ferdinand de Lesseps should have stuck to watching French films , once he had seen Field of dreams he got the strange notion that if he built it people would come .
Originally Posted by Shaka_Khan:
I didn't say that we should equip the ships (whether that's good or not (and whether you were talking to me or not)). I'm just saying the effects of piracy.
I wasn't aiming it only at you but consider that putting a bunch of armed men who get paid a lot per hour on every ship (even those that won't actually get attacked as you do not know which ones will be) won't be cheap either. Then if a ship gets attacked those armed men will fire a lot of ammunition, the more effective, the more expensive, look up the costs of some modern guided missiles for example. Now putting men with guided missiles on a merchant ship sounds silly so maybe they'll just use guns but then the pirates will get anygry and shoot asome RPGs at the ship. If it sinks it will get really expensive, you have to search for it, clean up the oil or whatever etc. etc. If we consider that modern tankers actually have a douple hull I suspect they could survive quite a few hits from RPGs but even then the outer hull will have some holes in it and there will possibly be more internal damage etc and all that has to be repaired, which costs a lot of money especially if you cannot use the ship for as long as the repairs take etc. etc. So you really gotta wonder what is cheaper in the end.I didn't say that we should equip the ships (whether that's good or not (and whether you were talking to me or not)). I'm just saying the effects of piracy.
Convoys.
I imagine one Frigate would be able to supervise several ships under most circumstances. Seeing as how at a distance from shore motherships would be required these would be detectable at a distance. These could be intercepted as required and nutralised as required.
I would have thought that this is better than several ships blindly trawling the area hoping to almost stumble over the somali pirates.
The cost would be no higher than having the ships there at the moment. I imagine that with the number of ships being taken is rising, insurance will eventually increase and so the cost of being in a convoy would be offset.
I imagine one Frigate would be able to supervise several ships under most circumstances. Seeing as how at a distance from shore motherships would be required these would be detectable at a distance. These could be intercepted as required and nutralised as required.
I would have thought that this is better than several ships blindly trawling the area hoping to almost stumble over the somali pirates.
The cost would be no higher than having the ships there at the moment. I imagine that with the number of ships being taken is rising, insurance will eventually increase and so the cost of being in a convoy would be offset.
...The USA hasn't tested a nuke in quite a while. Why not let Bush withdraw under the spotlight by ordering a nuke attack on Somalia, not only just to how powerful nukes are nowadays, but also to clean any and all pirate supporters? (And potential pirate supporters as well) :P
Originally Posted by :
Convoys.
You mean like the French operating out of Djibouti are doing ?Convoys.
Two military ships which means they are allowed to put armed parties on two merchant ships too without any legal complications then getting a whole pile of other ships by appointment to escort and also allowing any other ships to tag along as a non convoyed part of the convoy .
Kinda makes sense doesn't it , its all nice and legal and you don't have the problem of having to declare you are at war to put armed people on civilian ships (a declaration which would of course put not only the insurance up but would mean you had to pay all the crew premium wage rates) .
The only downsides of the operation is that they won't take slow ships and the ships have to wait as its only one convoy opeating the journey up and then the journey down the Gulf of Aden , but they are not much of a downside are they .
Am I the only one who finds this to be full of awesome? THERE ARE PIRATES AND THEY ARE TAKING GOODS! and here we are bickering about how to protect the ships! I say, why let the Somalis have all the fun? The org should buy a ship and start stealing things. Then we could buy Sealand and live forever on our compound safe from the outside world!
Plunder FTW
Plunder FTW
Originally Posted by Strike For The South:
Am I the only one who finds this to be full of awesome? THERE ARE PIRATES AND THEY ARE TAKING GOODS! and here we are bickering about how to protect the ships! I say, why let the Somalis have all the fun? The org should buy a ship and start stealing things. Then we could buy Sealand and live forever on our compound safe from the outside world!
Plunder FTW
I agree - it is awesome. Nobody is dying and when nobody is dying and pirates are running amok I am totally in support of whatever balance is causing it.Am I the only one who finds this to be full of awesome? THERE ARE PIRATES AND THEY ARE TAKING GOODS! and here we are bickering about how to protect the ships! I say, why let the Somalis have all the fun? The org should buy a ship and start stealing things. Then we could buy Sealand and live forever on our compound safe from the outside world!
Plunder FTW
When it is a few ships and people are being garroted it is a concern - when it is little boats full of poor people with RPG's stealing Giant Russian, Iranian and Indian crap and giving the U.S. Navy something to do, I can't say that I'm opposed.
I want to see footage of pirates boarding a ship with cutlasses and eyepatches. And parrots. 
The US Navy definitely needs something to do, I'm sure they are bored and feeling left out of all the fun in Iraq and Afghanistan. Park a carrier group off the Horn, organize a comms net with the merchies, and keep a few F-18s and E-2s aloft 24-7. Of course, given our usual track record, it will start out well, but then we will start going after smugglers and other undesirables, and it will just go downhill from there.
Are there still a lot of pirates around Indonesia?
The US Navy definitely needs something to do, I'm sure they are bored and feeling left out of all the fun in Iraq and Afghanistan. Park a carrier group off the Horn, organize a comms net with the merchies, and keep a few F-18s and E-2s aloft 24-7. Of course, given our usual track record, it will start out well, but then we will start going after smugglers and other undesirables, and it will just go downhill from there.
Are there still a lot of pirates around Indonesia?
Originally Posted by drone:
I want to see footage of pirates boarding a ship with cutlasses and eyepatches. And parrots.
The US Navy definitely needs something to do, I'm sure they are bored and feeling left out of all the fun in Iraq and Afghanistan. Park a carrier group off the Horn, organize a comms net with the merchies, and keep a few F-18s and E-2s aloft 24-7. Of course, given our usual track record, it will start out well, but then we will start going after smugglers and other undesirables, and it will just go downhill from there.
Are there still a lot of pirates around Indonesia?
Yes - just this week there was a hijacking or two in the Strait of Malacca.I want to see footage of pirates boarding a ship with cutlasses and eyepatches. And parrots.
The US Navy definitely needs something to do, I'm sure they are bored and feeling left out of all the fun in Iraq and Afghanistan. Park a carrier group off the Horn, organize a comms net with the merchies, and keep a few F-18s and E-2s aloft 24-7. Of course, given our usual track record, it will start out well, but then we will start going after smugglers and other undesirables, and it will just go downhill from there.
Are there still a lot of pirates around Indonesia?
Here is another link to that IMB site that Tribesman posted. See, Tribesman? I don't see why you refuse to post links to sources - this one is great.
EDIT - the link is dead again, but keep looking, it is great.
Originally Posted by Husar:
I wasn't aiming it only at you but consider that putting a bunch of armed men who get paid a lot per hour on every ship (even those that won't actually get attacked as you do not know which ones will be) won't be cheap either....So you really gotta wonder what is cheaper in the end.
You were being a bit obnoxious over something that I didn't say.I wasn't aiming it only at you but consider that putting a bunch of armed men who get paid a lot per hour on every ship (even those that won't actually get attacked as you do not know which ones will be) won't be cheap either....So you really gotta wonder what is cheaper in the end.
Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff:
When it is a few ships and people are being garroted it is a concern - when it is little boats full of poor people with RPG's stealing Giant Russian, Iranian and Indian crap and giving the U.S. Navy something to do, I can't say that I'm opposed.
Yes, it would sound awesome to you.When it is a few ships and people are being garroted it is a concern - when it is little boats full of poor people with RPG's stealing Giant Russian, Iranian and Indian crap and giving the U.S. Navy something to do, I can't say that I'm opposed.
Yes, it would sound awesome to an American.
If you disconnect from the reality of the situation, and just imagine it as a film or some kind of computer game it probably sounds awesome to most people... (including me)
If you disconnect from the reality of the situation, and just imagine it as a film or some kind of computer game it probably sounds awesome to most people... (including me)
Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff:
I agree - it is awesome. Nobody is dying and when nobody is dying and pirates are running amok I am totally in support of whatever balance is causing it....
I agree - it is awesome. Nobody is dying and when nobody is dying and pirates are running amok I am totally in support of whatever balance is causing it....
Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff:
...and giving the U.S. Navy something to do, I can't say that I'm opposed.
There will be a lot of shooting when the US Navy does something, unless you weren't talking about the pirates' lives....and giving the U.S. Navy something to do, I can't say that I'm opposed.
Y'all see that? It's a golden opportunity passing right through our fingers.
Metaphorically AND literally
Metaphorically AND literally
Originally Posted by Shaka_Khan:
There will be a lot of shooting when the US Navy does something, unless you weren't talking about the pirates' lives.
It was tongue in cheek.There will be a lot of shooting when the US Navy does something, unless you weren't talking about the pirates' lives.
Piracy is a major problem in the gulf od Aden, but up against the killing of men, women and children in those areas, it is a refreshing change.
Originally Posted by Strike For The South:
Am I the only one who finds this to be full of awesome? THERE ARE PIRATES AND THEY ARE TAKING GOODS! and here we are bickering about how to protect the ships! I say, why let the Somalis have all the fun? The org should buy a ship and start stealing things. Then we could buy Sealand and live forever on our compound safe from the outside world!
Plunder FTW
I think I commented on the awesomeness of the situation in the OP. The fact that they're hanging on this long just adds to the greatness. Am I the only one who finds this to be full of awesome? THERE ARE PIRATES AND THEY ARE TAKING GOODS! and here we are bickering about how to protect the ships! I say, why let the Somalis have all the fun? The org should buy a ship and start stealing things. Then we could buy Sealand and live forever on our compound safe from the outside world!
Plunder FTW
Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief:
I think I commented on the awesomeness of the situation in the OP. The fact that they're hanging on this long just adds to the greatness.
I think I commented on the awesomeness of the situation in the OP. The fact that they're hanging on this long just adds to the greatness.
Can I be your first mate?Originally Posted by Strike For The South:
Can I be your first mate?
Only in Massachusetts. Can I be your first mate?Don't forget Connecticut.
Originally Posted by Shaka_Khan:
You were being a bit obnoxious over something that I didn't say
If it had been aimed only at you, I had quoted you, but I didn't, I just generally released my post into the wide open planes for everyone to feel adressed if they feel adressed, if you felt wrongfully adressed then that is either because you weren't adressed or because you weren't adressed or perhaps because I didn't adress you. You were being a bit obnoxious over something that I didn't say
Originally Posted by :
park a carrier group off the Horn, organize a comms net with the merchies, and keep a few F-18s and E-2s aloft 24-7.
park a carrier group off the Horn, organize a comms net with the merchies, and keep a few F-18s and E-2s aloft 24-7.
EDIT: Removed hotlinked picture. BG
WOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Foreign policy according to the WWE? I think we can end this thread now.
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO