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Thread: Gay Rights are Not Civil Rights

  1. #1
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Gay Rights are Not Civil Rights

    Lately there has been a surge in Gay rights are equal to civil rights which is simply not true. First lets forget the fact that gays arent nearly subject to 1/100000000 of the prejudice that blacks were. There isn't a constitutional precedence for it either and to say there is one means you take such a literal meaning interpretation of the constitution that you make the legislative branch utterly useless. Here are some of the arguments I have heard

    So you only think the constitutions laws are the ones your republic can have?

    Well no thats why we have congress but I can see why you would think that as they are always more busy with naming parks than tackiling tough issues

    BUT ITS WRONG OH SO VERY WRONG

    Well that maybe however the courts job is not to make law only to interpret the thing so no matter how "wrong" something may be it does not give the courts the right to project there on view of morality on the case (IE Roe V Wade)


    Dred Scott V Sanford (1857)

    The judgement is as folllows

    States do not have the right to claim an individual’s property that was fairly theirs in another state. Property cannot cease to exist as a result of changing jurisdiction. The majority decision held that Africans residing in America, whether free or slave, could not become United States citizens and the plaintiff therefore lacked the capacity to file a lawsuit. Furthermore, the parts of the Missouri Compromise creating free territories were unconstitutional because Congress had no authority to abolish slavery in federal territories. Judgment of Circuit Court for the District of Missouri reversed and dismissed for lack of jurisdiction.
    Now slavery is a wrong however in this case the court ruled right. The constitution says nothing about slavery and there were laws that counted slaves as property. So therefore the court made the right decision here despite the fact it was "wrong"

    Plessy v. Ferguson (1896)

    Now this is a legal ruling due to the fact that Plessy only used the 14th amendment and did not try to utilize other parts of the constitution. the 14th amendment says nothing about everyone being integrated only that they be equal. If he had pointed out that the facilities were "separate but equal in name only" then they would've had a case but they didnt and the civil rights movement shot itself in the foot.

    Brown v. Board of education (1954)

    This is the ruling that overturned Plessy and to me is an illegal ruling. I think the fact that even after this was ruled there are still white and black schools is a testament to this. School segregation was on its way out. The civil rights movement was getting up (and for the most part would go through the right channels with the civil rights act of 1964 which I consider a hallmark in Americas law processing) The EPA says nothing about integration just equality. With this ruling one could argue that the public school system today is a racist classist institution granted the supreme court would knock it down however at that point they would be more in line with a Plessy ruling than with a Brown one. Like in Plessy the courts were being used as a legislative branch only this time it worked.

    In todays say in age the gay movement is trying this same route and it is only turning people off. Not to mention it is straight up illegal as the constitution (cali or otherwise) says nothing about marriage to begin with. They have even less precedent than the civil rights movement.

    For the record I'm not a bigot or a homophobe I merley want my republic to stay just that. No matter how wrong people may perceive it.
    Last edited by Strike For The South; 11-10-2008 at 19:05.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  2. #2
    Backordered Member CrossLOPER's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gay Rights are Not Civil Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    For the record I'm not a bigot or a homophobe...
    Please see me after class.
    Requesting suggestions for new sig.

    -><- GOGOGO GOGOGO WINLAND WINLAND ALL HAIL TECHNOVIKING!SCHUMACHER!
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    WHY AM I NOT BEING PAID FOR THIS???

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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gay Rights are Not Civil Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by CrossLOPER View Post
    Please see me after class.
    So instead if debating merit you do this? Do you know how the American law process operates? Now I very well maybe wrong in fact I'm really only posting this to create discussion about constitutionality as I am well aware that this is a very conservative opinion and I am open to other opinions. Im guessing you just read the title/?
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re : Gay Rights are Not Civil Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    the gay movement is trying this same route and it is only turning people off. Not to mention it is straight
    I see.
    Anything unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Gay Rights are Not Civil Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    I see.
    ? I have stated many times I am a proponent for gay rights and that marrige should be off the books. If the best you can do is paint me as a homophobe then I weep for my republic as its now ruled by people who don't know how to run it
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  6. #6
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re : Gay Rights are Not Civil Rights

    the gay movement is trying this same route and it is only turning people off. Not to mention itis straight
    Anything unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
    Texan by birth, woodpecker by the grace of God
    I would be the voice of your conscience if you had one - Brenus
    Bt why woulf we uy lsn'y Staraft - Fragony
    Not everything
    blue and underlined is a link


  7. #7
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Gay Rights are Not Civil Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Ok Freud disicet me

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    You big tease :filrt:
    Last edited by Strike For The South; 11-10-2008 at 20:34.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  8. #8
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gay Rights are Not Civil Rights

    So can no one argue on constitutional grounds? I guess once your religious straw-men and emotional appeals are gone you have no argument.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  9. #9
    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gay Rights are Not Civil Rights

    It doesn't matter if the Constitution says nothing specific about it - it should be allowed, end of story.
    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
    Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.

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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gay Rights are Not Civil Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by CountArach View Post
    It doesn't matter if the Constitution says nothing specific about it - it should be allowed, end of story.
    And you're willing to allow courts to supersede legislature? even if its against the majorities wishes?
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  11. #11
    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gay Rights are Not Civil Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    And you're willing to allow courts to supersede legislature? even if its against the majorities wishes?
    First off - read my post again, where did I ever say that?

    Secondly - yes I have no problem with that as long as the Constitutional argument is on the court's side. In a case where a minority (In this case the LGBT movement) is having their rights stripped from them it is absolutely necessary to consult the Constitution.
    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
    Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.

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    Illuminated Moderator Pogo Panic Champion, Graveyard Champion, Missle Attack Champion, Ninja Kid Champion, Pop-Up Killer Champion, Ratman Ralph Champion GeneralHankerchief's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gay Rights are Not Civil Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by CountArach View Post
    It doesn't matter if the Constitution says nothing specific about it - it should be allowed, end of story.
    If the Constitution says nothing about it, then by rule it is delegated to the states.
    "I'm going to die anyway, and therefore have nothing more to do except deliberately annoy Lemur." -Orb, in the chat
    "Lemur. Even if he's innocent, he's a pain; so kill him." -Ignoramus
    "I'm going to need to collect all of the rants about the guilty lemur, and put them in a pretty box with ponies and pink bows. Then I'm going to sprinkle sparkly magic dust on the box, and kiss it." -Lemur
    Mafia: Promoting peace and love since June 2006

    Quote Originally Posted by TosaInu
    At times I read back my own posts [...]. It's not always clear at first glance.


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    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gay Rights are Not Civil Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief View Post
    If the Constitution says nothing about it, then by rule it is delegated to the states.
    And I have no problem with that for your crazy country...
    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
    Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.

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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gay Rights are Not Civil Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by CountArach View Post
    First off - read my post again, where did I ever say that?

    Secondly - yes I have no problem with that as long as the Constitutional argument is on the court's side. In a case where a minority (In this case the LGBT movement) is having their rights stripped from them it is absolutely necessary to consult the Constitution.
    You didnt I asked you a question

    The constitution is not on there side and to say it is would be circumventing process and they are having no rights "stripped" they never had them to begin with.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

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    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gay Rights are Not Civil Rights

    A) Define "gay rights".

    Using that term already implies discrimination.

    B) As for discrimination:

    Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

    Article 1.
    All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights

    (...)

    Article 7.
    All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law.
    Now, I'll assume you're talking about gays being allowed to marry and I assume we all agree that gays are human beings.

    Since non-discrimination is the rule, then not allowing gays to marry is an exception of that rule.

    The question should thus not be "Why would gays be allowed to marry", but should be: "Why would gays not be allowed to marry?"

    Answer that question first and then we can continue to discuss.
    Andres is our Lord and Master and could strike us down with thunderbolts or beer cans at any time. ~Askthepizzaguy

    Ja mata, TosaInu

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    Illuminated Moderator Pogo Panic Champion, Graveyard Champion, Missle Attack Champion, Ninja Kid Champion, Pop-Up Killer Champion, Ratman Ralph Champion GeneralHankerchief's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gay Rights are Not Civil Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by CountArach View Post
    And I have no problem with that for your crazy country...
    You may call it crazy, but so far Constitutional adherence has been (rightfully) followed. If we don't, then the entire sanctity of the document, the foundation upon which America is literally built, is at risk. There are other, legal ways of challenging social injustices that do not threaten to tear apart the established procedure. This has been followed in the past up until recent decades, and that's where a lot of problems start happening.
    "I'm going to die anyway, and therefore have nothing more to do except deliberately annoy Lemur." -Orb, in the chat
    "Lemur. Even if he's innocent, he's a pain; so kill him." -Ignoramus
    "I'm going to need to collect all of the rants about the guilty lemur, and put them in a pretty box with ponies and pink bows. Then I'm going to sprinkle sparkly magic dust on the box, and kiss it." -Lemur
    Mafia: Promoting peace and love since June 2006

    Quote Originally Posted by TosaInu
    At times I read back my own posts [...]. It's not always clear at first glance.


  17. #17
    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gay Rights are Not Civil Rights

    Wrong argument Andres, I tried it before and Strike says the document is irrelevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Strike
    The constitution is not on there side and to say it is would be circumventing process and they are having no rights "stripped" they never had them to begin with.
    What you are describing is a privilege. Rights aren't granted - they are yours from birth because you are a HUMAN BEING
    Last edited by CountArach; 11-10-2008 at 22:48.
    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
    Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.

  18. #18
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gay Rights are Not Civil Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Andres View Post
    A) Define "gay rights".

    Using that term already implies discrimination.

    B) As for discrimination:

    Universal Declaration of Human Rights:



    Now, I'll assume you're talking about gays being allowed to marry and I assume we all agree that gays are human beings.

    Since non-discrimination is the rule, then not allowing gays to marry is an exception of that rule.

    The question should thus not be "Why would gays be allowed to marry", but should be: "Why would gays not be allowed to marry?"

    Answer that question first and then we can continue to discuss.

    That document holds no weight in my country.

    I have said many times before that marriage should be off the books entirely. This thread is about the constitution and its place in todays government. I choose the LGBT movement because it gets the most rise out of people and its when they become the most self richoues (To be fair I could've chosen abortion to) I figured many of you would know my postions by now but I was mistaken.

    @countarch Rights are only yours if you can defend them which is why this argument is so important.
    Last edited by Strike For The South; 11-10-2008 at 22:49.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  19. #19
    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gay Rights are Not Civil Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    That document holds no weight in my country.
    Your country signed it, ergo it holds weight.
    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    @countarch Rights are only yours if you can defend them which is why this argument is so important.
    What are you talking about? Why do rights need to be defended to exist? I can't defend my right to being alive - but I have it...
    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
    Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.

  20. #20
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gay Rights are Not Civil Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by CountArach View Post
    Your country signed it, ergo it holds weight.

    What are you talking about? Why do rights need to be defended to exist? I can't defend my right to being alive - but I have it...
    The constitution is the supreme law of the land.

    Your "rights" only go so far as people in power deem them to. Thats why every time a judge hands down a decision like this the constitution loses a little more power everyone (even the gays) loses a little more freedom.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  21. #21
    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gay Rights are Not Civil Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    The constitution is the supreme law of the land.

    Your "rights" only go so far as people in power deem them to. Thats why every time a judge hands down a decision like this the constitution loses a little more power everyone (even the gays) loses a little more freedom.
    Allow me to channel my inner Tribesman:



    The idea that you lose freedom because other people have freedoms they were born with recognised is utterly ludicrous... completely and utterly ludicrous....
    Last edited by CountArach; 11-10-2008 at 22:56.
    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
    Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.

  22. #22
    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gay Rights are Not Civil Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by CountArach View Post
    Your country signed it, ergo it holds weight.
    Not really.
    The United States long resisted ratification. This was motivated by popular American dislike for the UN, but also out of a fear that the covenant's anti-death-penalty language could be used by domestic anti-death-penalty activists to litigate against capital punishment. The United States Senate ratified the ICCPR in 1992, with a number of reservations, understandings, and declarations; with so many, in fact, that its implementation has little domestic effect.[3] In particular, the Senate declared in 138 Cong. Rec. S4781-84 (1992) that "the provisions of Article 1 through 27 of the Covenant are not self-executing", and in S. Exec. Rep., No. 102-23 (1992) stated that the declaration was meant to "clarify that the Covenant will not create a private cause of action in U.S. Courts."
    But again, it's pretty irrelevant since no one is denying anyone the ability to get married.
    Last edited by Xiahou; 11-10-2008 at 23:00.
    "Don't believe everything you read online."
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    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gay Rights are Not Civil Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    Wow, I just lost the last shred of respect I had remaining for the United States.
    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
    Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.

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    Illuminated Moderator Pogo Panic Champion, Graveyard Champion, Missle Attack Champion, Ninja Kid Champion, Pop-Up Killer Champion, Ratman Ralph Champion GeneralHankerchief's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gay Rights are Not Civil Rights

    But Obama got elected.
    "I'm going to die anyway, and therefore have nothing more to do except deliberately annoy Lemur." -Orb, in the chat
    "Lemur. Even if he's innocent, he's a pain; so kill him." -Ignoramus
    "I'm going to need to collect all of the rants about the guilty lemur, and put them in a pretty box with ponies and pink bows. Then I'm going to sprinkle sparkly magic dust on the box, and kiss it." -Lemur
    Mafia: Promoting peace and love since June 2006

    Quote Originally Posted by TosaInu
    At times I read back my own posts [...]. It's not always clear at first glance.


  25. #25
    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gay Rights are Not Civil Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief View Post
    But Obama got elected.
    He ain't getting that part of my respect back until he removes the reservations or signs a new treaty without reservations.
    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
    Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.

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    Default Re: Gay Rights are Not Civil Rights

    Why do you blame Obama for the Senate's hesitancy to sign the treaty? It was in 1992; he had nothing to do with its passage or gutting.
    "I'm going to die anyway, and therefore have nothing more to do except deliberately annoy Lemur." -Orb, in the chat
    "Lemur. Even if he's innocent, he's a pain; so kill him." -Ignoramus
    "I'm going to need to collect all of the rants about the guilty lemur, and put them in a pretty box with ponies and pink bows. Then I'm going to sprinkle sparkly magic dust on the box, and kiss it." -Lemur
    Mafia: Promoting peace and love since June 2006

    Quote Originally Posted by TosaInu
    At times I read back my own posts [...]. It's not always clear at first glance.


  27. #27
    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gay Rights are Not Civil Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief View Post
    Why do you blame Obama for the Senate's hesitancy to sign the treaty? It was in 1992; he had nothing to do with its passage or gutting.
    I'm not blaming Obama, but I will not grant the United States as a country my respect until the above happens.
    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
    Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.

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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gay Rights are Not Civil Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by CountArach View Post
    I'm not blaming Obama, but I will not grant the United States as a country my respect until the above happens.
    That's funny, because I was actually pleased to see that my government chose not to subordinate our founding document to some feel good fluff pumped out by the UN.
    "Don't believe everything you read online."
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    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gay Rights are Not Civil Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    That's funny, because I was actually pleased to see that my government chose not to subordinate our founding document to some feel good fluff pumped out by the UN.
    I had a feeling we might see the UN differently
    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
    Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.

  30. #30
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gay Rights are Not Civil Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by CountArach View Post
    Allow me to channel my inner Tribesman:



    The idea that you lose freedom because other people have freedoms they were born with recognised is utterly ludicrous... completely and utterly ludicrous....
    and you missed the point of my post.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

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