Question about Roman units

[Gunzak]

I noticed that after I got the Polybian Reforms that the standard Principes units had lower attack but higher defense and the same was true with the other units. Are the units any better after the reforms with a lower attack value or are they better with the higher defense?

[Aemilius Paulus]

The Polybian Principes have sword attack. The Camillian Principes have spear attack. The spears get a -4 attack against sword infantry. So your Reformed Principes actually have a much lower attack against cavalry, but a little higher attack against infantry. Polybian Principes have 11 attack vs infantry and 24 armour. The Camillian Principes have only 10 attack against sword infantry and 14 against cavalry with only 22 armour.

So the Polybians are better since the vast majority of the units your enemies field are foot and not mounted. For the few cavalry that you will have to face you can just bring some Triarii. The Polybian Triarii are actually worse than the Camillian. They have 2 less armour and the same attack.

[Gunzak]

So overall the infantry are better after the first reform. Was just curious as I was debating continuing my current campaign (year 243 and conquered all of Greece, the islands south of Rome, most of North Africa and am now moving into Persia and the rest of Africa) or starting over and just conquering Italy and waiting for the reforms. I am not in any hurry to expand I just find it super easy to do so with Rome.

Oh I also have almost 700,000 Denari and I can't find stuff to spend it on. Even with constant building and a massive recruiting effort my income far out weighs my spending.

[Aemilius Paulus]

So overall the infantry are better after the first reform.

I prefer Camillian units. The infantry is slightly better, but the Romani are much weaker against cavalry after the Polybian reform. The Polybian Triarii are lighter-armoured and the Principes lack their spears. It is a good thing that all of the cavalry-based nomadic and eastern factions are far away from the Romani, or else they could easily slaughter some Polybian units. Marian are also somewhat a trade-off. The Cohortes Reformata have 100 men on the large unit scale, whereas the Polybian Principes have only 80. However, the Cohortes Reformata have 2 less defence than the Polybian Principes with the same attack.

Accensi, Triarii and Hastati are all missing after the Marian Reforms hit. Same with Rorarii and Leves. So Rome is left with pretty much no long-range support. Velites I believe, are still available, but who uses skirmishers anyway? So once the Marian reforms hit, I am going to recruit even more regionals than I already am. Antesignani are nice, with javelins and 17 attack/26 defence, but one again its a trade-off, as they have only 60 men, compared to 80 in a Triarii unit. Camillian Triarii have one more defence as well. Not only this, but the Camillian Triarii have 4 shield, while Antesignani have only 3, making them vulnerable to missiles.

As you can see, the reforms are very complicated, with no clear benefits or detriments. It is all a trade-off: lose one thing, gain something else. With the Romani you never have a reformed unit that is clearly better than its predecessor.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Camillan units are far less steady on the battlefield than their Polybian counterparts. When using the Quicunx, Polybian Hastati seem to last far longer without routing and inflict more damage, and Principes are far more effective and disciplined. I rarely field Triarii anyway so I don't bother with that, neither with Equites: what matters is that the bulk of your army gets better during the Polybian reforms. Cavalry can be fought with Samnite Spearmen and other allies\mercenaries\auxiliaries on the flank carrying spears, so they aren't worth bothering about.

The unit you should recruit for every legion you have after the Marian Reforms is the Cohors Evocata + antesignani. It's a fearsome bulk of infantry and far better than what many factions can field.

[Gunzak]

Pre reforms don't Samnite Spearmen and Triarii have the same stats? I never recruited the Samnites because they cost more but had the same stats as Triarii and I had less places to recruit them.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Camillan triarii are better than Samnites, though I'm not sure about the more expensive part. I use them still to cover my flanks.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Camillan units are far less steady on the battlefield than their Polybian counterparts.

Yes, that much is true, but for me morale is rarely a problem. I would rather have a unit that has high stats than high morale. 90% of my battles are relatively easy (no more than 2:5 battle odds) where the main concern is achieving victory with the lightest possible losses. Half of the "10%" battles are simply hopeless and only 5% are those battles where the I am facing a fullstack with the odds 1:3 against me. That 5% is where the morale really matters, but as you can see, those kind of battles are not very common for me.

I rarely field Triarii anyway so I don't bother with that

Triarii are my main Romani infantry unit for the Camillian Era. That is why I do not like the Polybian Reforms; I don't field very many Principes and i have only used Hastati in the early game.

Cavalry can be fought with Samnite Spearmen and other allies\mercenaries\auxiliaries on the flank carrying spears, so they aren't worth bothering about.

Samnites are weak, to be called a good spearmen unit. They are about medium, but certainly better than those countless levies that are available all over the map. A good spearman unit, in my opinion, should have at least 14 attack and 24 defence (with or without upgrades). So unless the Samnites have a bunch of experience, I would not recruit them personally. Hoplitai (Greek Classical Hoplites) are pretty good, but when you start fighting the Seleukids and their endless general's bodyguards, you're going to wish you had Camillian Triarii. The AS Somatophylakes Strategou/Hetairoi are so powerful that in most of my settlement battles, 4 units of three experience and one weapon/armour Triarii each take 10 casualties in a frontal fight with the bodyguards. If I can manage to surround the bodyguards, they are dead in seconds with only two-three losses, but that does not always happen.

As for other regional spearmen, it is rather difficult to find good ones. Mori Gaesum, Galatikoi Kuarothoroi (Galatian Heavy Spearmen), Hoplitai, and Iberi Scutari (not that great, but the best in Iberia) are a few.

Principes are far more effective

Yes, perhaps the closest to a reformed Romani unit that is clearly better than its predecessor. However, I would rather have the Camillian Principes fight horsemen.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

When I play EB I intend to do it as historically as possible. I don't know how one can download and play a historical mod without a set of house rules on playing historically, of course :P, and that means recruiting hastati even though they are completely useless when down to the stats. Besides triarii are expensive and intended to be rare, since they are more of an elite unit proper than some manstay of every army: you should use principes for that, and considering the fact that Romani is one of the factions that can field tons of armies compared to less privileged factions such as Arverni fielding lots of elite units gets old quick. Besides, the use of a formation such as the Quicunx can make otherwise lame units to be very good and less costly than the whole triarii option.

As for the spearmen question, it is indeed true that Polybians suffer against cavalry. But then the main enemy here is infantry, and Polybians are the ones who excel at fighting them: usually you will still be facing hordes of Greek hoplites and barbarian infantry, coupled with Carthaginian phalanxes and heavy infantry. Polybians are the RIGHT guys to face them, while enemy cavalry is more of an afterthought: usually your triarii can protect your flanks, or some cheap levy unit like Iberian Spearmen if you don't expect heavy opposition. Against the Carthaginian bodyguards even Samnites do, as long as you employ them with local superiority in numbers and provide for some support in case things get dire, like a cavalry charge.

By the time you really get to the factions that employ cavalry heavy you're probably already on the Marian period, which means a wide AOR for heavy infantry, and a wide range of auxiliaries over the map. Like countless spearmen of diverse qualities to withstand the charge of even the fiercest Nomad cavalry, and as for HA's Marian units can actually use the Testudo while the Camillans can't.

[Chris1959]

Bear in mind that Polybian units have higher morale than Camillan units Hastai P/13 to C/11, Princepes P/14 to C/12, Triarii P/15 to C/13, Marian Cohors Reformata are M/15.

Caveat; According to the Akriades cards for EB1.0 some units statss have changed in 1.1

Also remember that to begin with you will be comparing veteran Camillans with raw Polybians, I've always found that with some experiance Polybians are much tougher and will stay in melee a lot longer.