Hoplite question

[Cyrus]

Why is it that such a huge error is in such a great game? i mean there are clearly better historians than me in this forum but even the lowest gread knower of greek history knows that hoplites are supposed to form a solid wall of shields in front of the enemy to provide defence for one another, why then is it that eb oplites just run like a disorderly mob in front of the enemy?

[a completely inoffensive name]

Ummm, you probably have not seen the phalanx minimod...

[desert]

TWFanatic's phalanx mod fixes that a little, but yeah, their shields should really be interlocked.

It's just game mechanics though; what can you do?

I haven't tested it personally, but I'd bet that the shieldwall trait in BI doesn't solve it either.

[XSamatan]

Just one word: hardcoded

Maybe someone with more modding experience can give you a little more detailed explanation...



and be a little temperate with your words, written things can easy be missunderstood



XSamatan

[Foot]

Why is it that such a huge error is in such a great game? i mean there are clearly better historians than me in this forum but even the lowest gread knower of greek history knows that hoplites are supposed to form a solid wall of shields in front of the enemy to provide defence for one another, why then is it that eb oplites just run like a disorderly mob in front of the enemy?

We have to work within the constraints of the game, and we felt that our representation was quite good. Others have disagreed and made changes accordingly.

Foot

[Maion Maroneios]

There are several things you could do to simulate a historical hoplite phalalx. First of all, try using guard mode when fighting or guarding a position. Secondly, try TWFanatic's phalanx mini-mod, or give them the shieldwall formation if you play on BI. I've done the latter, by the way.

Maion

[Cyrus]

Ok well first of all what i meant must not be understood as an offence or critich to the game or people who created it, just simple curiosity,i love EB exept for it's too frequent crashes......
And secondly what are the guarding position and phalanx mini mod?
Thirdly i have eb from rtw gold edition so should i be able to do the shield wall formation?

[theoldbelgian]

guard position is the button with the shield on in the unit control panel: it makes your units fight more like a solid block
doesn't tire them that much but they seem to fight worse, and they don't chase routing enemies anymore
for the rtw gold: you still have to set eb in on BI just forumsearch for BI and you 'll get there
the greatest problem with this is that your generals no longer supplies in your regions only in city's

[Pontius Pilate]

Ok well first of all what i meant must not be understood as an offence or critich to the game or people who created it, just simple curiosity,i love EB exept for it's too frequent crashes......
And secondly what are the guarding position and phalanx mini mod?
Thirdly i have eb from rtw gold edition so should i be able to do the shield wall formation?

no need to apologize. and yeah, as stated before, it's hardcoded into the game and not much else can be done to fix the hoplite shield wall. although the phalanx minimod helps a little bit. also the shield wall animation is only in Barbarian Invasion expansion. in my opinion I don't like the shield wall from Barbarian Invasion, it makes the unit too small in length and just isn't effective. if you want to get EB on BI anyway, just go to the unofficial EB modding projects of the forum. you must also have B. invasion installed too.

[Maion Maroneios]

it makes the unit too small in length and just isn't effective.

Could you please define the first thing you said? As for their effectiveness, the shieldwall gives them bonuses in defense. Much more reliable than guard mode and more correct than the short_pike attribute, which makes units take weird angles with their spears, plus the back rows hold them in a 45 degree angle. And let us not forget the fact that the short_pike attribute makes units stick together that much, that it becomes completely unhistorical.

Maion

[SwissBarbar]

Why is it that such a huge error is in such a great game? i mean there are clearly better historians than me in this forum but even the lowest gread knower of greek history knows that hoplites are supposed to form a solid wall of shields in front of the enemy to provide defence for one another, why then is it that eb oplites just run like a disorderly mob in front of the enemy?

Imagine vanilla RTW as a strawberry. You can make it better by adding sugar and stuff. EB is the sugared, chocolate-vanilla-sauced, peach-icecream cultivated version of the strawberry , but you still cannot make a banana out of it.

EB works with the tools V-RTW to give us and make the best they can out of it. I'm sure the know pretty well about phalanxes.

[oudysseos]

Cyrus, I did in fact give you the citation: 5.71.1, i.e. book 5 chapter 71. Here is the original.

ξυνιόντων δ᾽ ἔτι Ἆγις ὁ βασιλεὺς τοιόνδε ἐβουλεύσατο δρᾶσαι. τὰ στρατόπεδα ποιεῖ μὲν καὶ ἅπαντα τοῦτο: ἐπὶ τὰ δεξιὰ κέρατα αὐτῶν ἐν ταῖς ξυνόδοις μᾶλλον ἐξωθεῖται, καὶ περιίσχουσι κατὰ τὸ τῶν ἐναντίων εὐώνυμον ἀμφότεροι τῷ δεξιῷ, διὰ τὸ φοβουμένους προσστέλλειν τὰ γυμνὰ ἕκαστον ὡς μάλιστα τῇ τοῦ ἐν δεξιᾷ παρατεταγμένου ἀσπίδι καὶ νομίζειν τὴν πυκνότητα τῆς ξυγκλῄσεως εὐσκεπαστότατον εἶναι: καὶ ἡγεῖται μὲν τῆς αἰτίας ταύτης ὁ πρωτοστάτης τοῦ δεξιοῦ κέρως, προθυμούμενος ἐξαλλάσσειν αἰεὶ τῶν ἐναντίων τὴν ἑαυτοῦ γύμνωσιν, ἕπονται δὲ διὰ τὸν αὐτὸν φόβον καὶ οἱ ἄλλοι.

My comment on the passages from the Anabasis would be that the Greek formations are dense compared to the Persian forces. This would be true whether you go along with Hanson or van Wees on the density of hoplite formations.

Again, the multiplicity of interpretations of these texts only means that certainty is impossible. To me, that indicates an agnostic attitude is probably best. Rather than say that the EB team committed a huge error, one might say that they have interpreted the data in a way with which you were unfamiliar.

[zooeyglass]

Cyrus, I did in fact give you the citation: 5.71.1, i.e. book 5 chapter 71. Here is the original.

ξυνιόντων δ᾽ ἔτι Ἆγις ὁ βασιλεὺς τοιόνδε ἐβουλεύσατο δρᾶσαι. τὰ στρατόπεδα ποιεῖ μὲν καὶ ἅπαντα τοῦτο: ἐπὶ τὰ δεξιὰ κέρατα αὐτῶν ἐν ταῖς ξυνόδοις μᾶλλον ἐξωθεῖται, καὶ περιίσχουσι κατὰ τὸ τῶν ἐναντίων εὐώνυμον ἀμφότεροι τῷ δεξιῷ, διὰ τὸ φοβουμένους προσστέλλειν τὰ γυμνὰ ἕκαστον ὡς μάλιστα τῇ τοῦ ἐν δεξιᾷ παρατεταγμένου ἀσπίδι καὶ νομίζειν τὴν πυκνότητα τῆς ξυγκλῄσεως εὐσκεπαστότατον εἶναι: καὶ ἡγεῖται μὲν τῆς αἰτίας ταύτης ὁ πρωτοστάτης τοῦ δεξιοῦ κέρως, προθυμούμενος ἐξαλλάσσειν αἰεὶ τῶν ἐναντίων τὴν ἑαυτοῦ γύμνωσιν, ἕπονται δὲ διὰ τὸν αὐτὸν φόβον καὶ οἱ ἄλλοι.

My comment on the passages from the Anabasis would be that the Greek formations are dense compared to the Persian forces. This would be true whether you go along with Hanson or van Wees on the density of hoplite formations.

Again, the multiplicity of interpretations of these texts only means that certainty is impossible. To me, that indicates an agnostic attitude is probably best. Rather than say that the EB team committed a huge error, one might say that they have interpreted the data in a way with which you were unfamiliar.

hear, hear! thank you for posting the greek also, kind of you. i liked your explanation and will read a little more around it.

[Cyrus]

Imagine vanilla RTW as a strawberry. You can make it better by adding sugar and stuff. EB is the sugared, chocolate-vanilla-sauced, peach-icecream cultivated version of the strawberry , but you still cannot make a banana out of it.

EB works with the tools V-RTW to give us and make the best they can out of it. I'm sure the know pretty well about phalanxes.

Mmmmm straberry............ "drools"
Anyway yeah their representation is ok i'm saying however there is much room to improve so maybe in eb 2 we might see something different?
And oudysseos sorry, i guess io missed the part where you said you wrote it anyway thanks.
I have a few more questions regarding the matter,the early triarii, roman hoplites why were they abandoned?they seem even stronger than the late ones.....
And were there any at cannae?
Since i only got as far as the polibian reforms once would anyone explain when,why and how they happened? and why have i never heard of them before? from what i studied polibius was just a writer.....

[Celtic_Punk]

My hoplites perform soundly thankyou.

Put em on Guard mode, and they'll kick ass if they are not flanked. If they are flanked, or the lines change a bit so that they are not straight, and part of your unit is isolated, switch off guard mode, and you'll continue to kick ass.

Hoplites are bomb... Dont let anyone tell you otherwise.

[Ludens]

I have a few more questions regarding the matter,the early triarii, roman hoplites why were they abandoned?they seem even stronger than the late ones.....
And were there any at cannae?
Since i only got as far as the polibian reforms once would anyone explain when,why and how they happened? and why have i never heard of them before? from what i studied polibius was just a writer.....

You are right that Polybius was a writer. The game uses the term Polybian military era to indicate the Roman army as described by Polybius during the second Punic war. This army was significantly better equipped than the armies of the Phyric and first Punic war (in-game called the Camillian military era).

The term "Polybian reform" is used, for want of better alternative, to describe this transformation. It probably wasn't a real reform, but a gradual adaptation of new techniques (Celtic chainmail, Iberian swords) coupled with an increase in wealth that allowed individual Romans to better equip themselves.

[IrishHitman]

In guard mode, they're close enough to replicate that anyway.....

[Cyrus]

Yes of course celticpunk they are fine,just saying i thought they didn't form the interlocking.....
But yeah i agree they kick ass!!! what do you mean "your" hoplites?
Also just off topic question how do i change my signature?
And how did the romans get in touch with the celtic chainmail? before giulius cesar they never went further than gallia transalipina.