Roman Armour (NOT a LS topic)

[Majd il-Romani]

In EB1 the Romans had Chainmail armour and that was it. I know Segmentata is not going to be in
EB2, but is Lorica Squamata going to be in? And if it is, is it going to be an armor upgrade or is it going to be mixed armor in one unit (like some wear chain, some wear scale, etc)

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

The Cohors Validvm Eastern wears scale in EB1. Since it was far less used than mail, and given the fondness of standardization in late Roman armies, I wouldn't expect more than just officers and auxiliaries wearing it.

[Pontius Pilate]

I think that some eastern auxuliaries might were the scale armor, like in EB I. I don't think it would be an armor upgrade since it was about the same in protection as chain mail. Also, for some reason, I don't think that it will be seen in the regular cohorts. well, that's my opinion.

[Majd il-Romani]

I think the reformata (or at the very least imperial) cohortes should have some scale mixed in

[abou]

Well, start compiling the evidence. It may help us save some time when concepting those units.

[Foot]

I think the reformata (or at the very least imperial) cohortes should have some scale mixed in

Can I ask why?

Foot

[Majd il-Romani]

Can I ask why?

Foot

alrite

Monuments and grave steles often depict standard bearers, centurions, and auxiliary cavalry wearing squamata, but the Adamklissi metopes also show regular legionaries wearing scale armor, augmented with laminated manica for limb protection and leather pteruges at the hips and shoulders. I don't remember where but it also says it its usage started in the late republic, hence the cohortes reformata idea, not just imperial.


also, to be honest...
it would look BADASS.

[abou]

Okay, can you give us something in our time frame?

[Majd il-Romani]

Okay, can you give us something in our time frame?

what do you mean? I said usage began in the late republic, hence the reformata idea. The Squamata could come with the Marian reforms.

[abou]

You know what, nevermind.

[Megas Methuselah]

You know what, nevermind.

I don't know what that means, but it'd be pretty sweet to see some scale mixed in with some chain amongst the reformata. I'm not implying that you should do it, but I'm merely stating it would look pretty sweet.

[Pontius Pilate]

I don't know what that means, but it'd be pretty sweet to see some scale mixed in with some chain amongst the reformata. I'm not implying that you should do it, but I'm merely stating it would look pretty sweet.

I think he means that he doesn't care and is not going to listen to what is going to be said or put up, because it has already been decided that scale armor is probably not going to be included for the reformata. and he is not going to include anything in the game just because some poster asks for it. well I could be wrong also. anyway, I don't know, scale armor in the reformata wouldn't look right, I feel it should be only hamata.

[Foot]

I think he means that he doesn't care and is not going to listen to what is going to be said or put up, because it has already been decided that scale armor is probably not going to be included for the reformata. and he is not going to include anything in the game just because some poster asks for it. well I could be wrong also. anyway, I don't know, scale armor in the reformata wouldn't look right, I feel it should be only hamata.

He was asking for something, specific evidence, and Majd wasn't able to produce anything that he felt satisfactory. He then realised that it wasn't really his area of work and decided that he wasn't particularly interested in following up the conversation here. I mean, we aren't even close to a position where we would start concepting post-marian troops.

Thinking the worst of people tends to be tiring. And this is what I mean by poison. Already your perception of the EB team is of one that sees the worst in a post.

Foot

[Atilius]

Monuments and grave steles often depict standard bearers, centurions, and auxiliary cavalry wearing squamata,

What monuments and grave steles? Dates? You've asked if individual legionaries will wear scale, not standard bearers and centurions, who were often equipped differently.

the Adamklissi metopes also show regular legionaries wearing scale armor, augmented with laminated manica for limb protection and leather pteruges at the hips and shoulders.

The Adamklissi stuff dates to the 2nd C AD; that's out of our time frame of course.

I don't remember where but it also says it its usage started in the late republic...

It?

Finally, as Foot said, we won't begin even thinking about Marian and later troops for some time yet.

[Pontius Pilate]

He was asking for something, specific evidence, and Majd wasn't able to produce anything that he felt satisfactory. He then realised that it wasn't really his area of work and decided that he wasn't particularly interested in following up the conversation here. I mean, we aren't even close to a position where we would start concepting post-marian troops.

Thinking the worst of people tends to be tiring. And this is what I mean by poison. Already your perception of the EB team is of one that sees the worst in a post.

Foot

I doubt there is anything that Majd or any other poster could produce that would be satisfactory, I mean, what could they possible bring up, a wikipedia article about Roman equipment, or something from google? I don't even know what is the point of asking posters to bring up evidence, they are not historians and they can only find so much reliable information on the web.

also, in my previous post I said "well I could be wrong also." But I guess that was meaningless. Once again I am mistaken for attacking the EB team. I really don't despise the EB team, I really apreciate their work. If I really wanted to make fun of the EB team I would just come out and say it directly, trust me, it would save me alot more trouble than this headache.

all of this back and forth arguments are very tiring. yes, yes, yes, I am a very evil and poisonous person who wants to bring down the EB team. well, whatever, just go ahead and use me as a scapegoat, somebody has to take the blame for everything.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Why are you always so dramatic Pontius?

[Majd il-Romani]

He was asking for something, specific evidence, and Majd wasn't able to produce anything that he felt satisfactory. I mean, we aren't even close to a position where we would start concepting post-marian troops.

OK well by the time you guys actually start working on post-marians then I'll probably have some research from livy or something...

EDIT: You know what, any authors/books/sites you recommmend for this research?

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

I doubt there is anything that Majd or any other poster could produce that would be satisfactory, I mean, what could they possible bring up, a wikipedia article about Roman equipment, or something from google? I don't even know what is the point of asking posters to bring up evidence, they are not historians and they can only find so much reliable information on the web.

Most the EB historians are actual historians and use academic resources to produce EB content. Since adademic content is used to create EB it is requested to rebut EB content. There are many people out there that are historians and have actual sources that they site when they want to prove something to the contrary.

[Atilius]

I doubt there is anything that Majd or any other poster could produce that would be satisfactory, I mean, what could they possible bring up, a wikipedia article about Roman equipment, or something from google?

Posters have occasionally brought interesting things to our attention. A photo of a dated artifact would be nice, along with its location.

I don't even know what is the point of asking posters to bring up evidence, they are not historians and they can only find so much reliable information on the web.

If someone makes a request for a certain unit or for a particular piece of equipment, we would naturally like to see some evidence to justify the request. That's no different from how we do things internally.

[Celtic_Punk]

Well archaeological evidence of the first scale armour would be scarce, not only because of corrosion, but these things were used in BATTLE, most of the first roman scale armour was destroyed by their use. Therefore we now have no evidence it existed. I could believe that by the middle of the early Imperial age all first Scale versions had been either destroyed or incorporated into new armour. (i.e. melted down) this is of course just a theory, but I thought I'd try to help out here.

IMHO I'd like to see the officers of the latest troops have scale. If anyone had it at that time, it was them, right?

[Strategos Alexandros]

OK well by the time you guys actually start working on post-marians then I'll probably have some research from livy or something...

EDIT: You know what, any authors/books/sites you recommmend for this research?

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin...ookup=Plb.+toc

[Majd il-Romani]

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin...ookup=Plb.+toc

wow... all of Polybius histories, thanks. You sir, may have a balon

oh and the unit descriptions of the Imperial cohorts on your website says

Most legionnaires are now equipped with Coolus bronze helmets, shirts of lorica hamata or squamata (chain or scale mail) as main body armour and a half ovular scutum, slightly lighter than old republican oval type, while being armed with a type Mainz gladius, two pila and a short dagger called a pugio.

just letting you guys know you said it yourselves

[Strategos Alexandros]

Thank you. There's a search function for the whole site too, and some other nice articles, pictures and translations.

[Atilius]

oh and the unit descriptions of the Imperial cohorts on your website says

Most legionnaires are now equipped with Coolus bronze helmets, shirts of lorica hamata or squamata (chain or scale mail) as main body armour and a half ovular scutum, slightly lighter than old republican oval type, while being armed with a type Mainz gladius, two pila and a short dagger called a pugio.

just letting you guys know you said it yourselves

That wasn't written by a current member of the team, so we can't ask him on what basis he drew those conclusions. While I have no reason to doubt that scale was used in some Imperial-era units, we will still need to verify that it was used in sufficient quantities to merit inclusion. If so, we could still have a problem if both chain and scale were not both used in a single unit: then we'd need a "chain cohort" unit and a "scale cohort" unit to feature Romans in scale. That may or may not be a wise way to use our limited number of unit slots.

But, as we've said a couple of times already, we won't be planning these units for quite some time yet. The answer to the question "Will some EB2 Romans have lorica squamata?" is "We don't know yet."