Linguistics discussion (split from new factions thread)

[Elmetiacos]

No, it's based on the assumption that they did not use the word before the Vikings came and they started using it when they did. A sack wasn't a new concept at that time, and still a new word was taken in for it.

So do you argue that there were no pigs in Portugal until the Romans introduced them?

[bovi]

So do you argue that there were no pigs in Portugal until the Romans introduced them?

Quite the opposite. I argue that despite that there was a great familiarity with a thing, be it a pig or a sack, people can take into their language another word for it. My argument is that in Britain, they certainly had bags, but didn't call them bags until there came other people who called them such. Similarly, Portugal had pigs and could start calling them something else than they used to, when other people came who used that new word.

[Cartaphilus]

In fact in Lusitanian language pig is "porcom", that it is very similar to the latin "porcum".

The main theory about the origin of that language relates it to the celtic family, but other theory (prof. Villar et alia) relates it to italian languages. For now, we don't have enough texts to decide the question.

[Elmetiacos]

Borrowing words for domestic animals is something not done, unless the language community in question didn't have that animal in the first place, an acknowledged fact used to assess the lifestyles of historical peoples. This isn't me saying this, it's generally recognised. If you say PORCOM is borrowed from Latin, you'll need a very good reason for saying it.

There are people out there who try and make Lusitanian a Celtic language, and their usual argument is that it must be a dialect of Celtic where PIE P never disappeared at all or a dialect of Celtic where the shift stopped halfway and P should be read as Φ. They like to point out that there are Celtic placenames and tribal names in the Lusitani territory. To me, this suggests that you have a Celtic or Celticised ruling class while the rest of the population speaks an "Old European" language, so that Lusitanian is in the same position as English after the Norman Conquest and doesn't need to be squeezed into the Celtic family.

[bovi]

That is different then. I have not the expertise in the area to argue against the position that specifically domestic animals never have new names imported. I cannot recall any example to the contrary at least. I was questioning the statement that something "as familiar as a pig" couldn't get a new name, which there are examples against.

[Elmetiacos]

Villar opposes classifying Lusitanian as Celtic, while Untermann is the main Celticist.

Grab a pdf of K T Witczak's 1999 essay on Lusitanian and the two names Laebo and Reve specifically here: http://emerita.revistas.csic.es/inde...wnload/185/186. It seems to come down firmly in the anti-Celtic Lusitanian camp. There's some more in E-Keltoi vol. 6.

[Cartaphilus]

In spanish wikipedia we can find this map.


I don't know if Villar is right or wrong about the lusitanian question, but I strongly recommend his job "Los indoeuropeos y los orígenes de Europa" (the indo-european and the origins of Europe).
If there's someone that speaks spanish here, this book is a "must".
It's edited by the prestigious Editorial Gredos.
I don't know if it is translated to other languages.
AWESOME BOOK.

[Viking_Wårlord]

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Im...750BC-1AD).png
This is how the first Germanic dialects evolved,eventually,these dialects reached certain places by the tribes' neverlasting migrations....

And talking about migration...

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Im...rwanderung.jpg

These migrations started the beginning of what we could now call 'european culture' though dna tests did not follow...as we can see,British people are more danish than anglo-saxon(the difference is still minimal though).
Remember that the Germanic tribes did not invade Rome because they were greedy but because they were pushed by the Huns invading from the east and kept aside by the roman 'limes'(wall).
It is then normal to see them 'burst' on all territories!