Linguistics discussion (split from new factions thread)

[Ibrahim]

Completely different topic:

How did the team reconstruct the steppe languages (ie the Sauromatae and the Saka Rauka). Presumably, being an Indo-Aryan language, you could look at related languages (indeed, there are a few recognizable words such as malik referring to king), but still, that's a lord of work to be done.

Also are there any pronounciation guides? Some of them are a right nightmare (especially the word for rider, whatever it is).

you sure malik is even indoeuropean?

unless two language groups (indo-Iranian and semetic), evolved the same word seperately.

[SpawnOfEbil]

Sorry, I saw it, realized it was used in India to refer to some kind of royalty and then assumed it was an Indo-European root.

[Ibrahim]

Sorry, I saw it, realized it was used in India to refer to some kind of royalty and then assumed it was an Indo-European root.

its OK, just figured Its unusual that 2 groups can evolve the exact same word seperately.

[Gleemonex]

its OK, just figured Its unusual that 2 groups can evolve the exact same word seperately.

Not necessarily. In languages of thousands of words [1], it's easy for similar words to crop up by pure coincidence. Of the many examples that surely exist, the one that comes to mind right now is the Taiwanese-Fujianese "热" /ʃjɔ/ (hot) and the French "chaud" /ʃɔ/ (hot).

-Glee

[1] For example, the average native English speaker has a 10 000 to 20 000 word vocabulary

[Ibrahim]

Not necessarily. In languages of thousands of words [1], it's easy for similar words to crop up by pure coincidence. Of the many examples that surely exist, the one that comes to mind right now is the Taiwanese-Fujianese "热" /ʃjɔ/ (hot) and the French "chaud" /ʃɔ/ (hot).

-Glee

[1] For example, the average native English speaker has a 10 000 to 20 000 word vocabulary

I never said it was impossible-just somewhat unusual, that's all. (I even have examples of me own: aye in english, compared to aye in sudani arabic. both= yes. aye in saudani is cognate to aywa, and a in varios eastern arabic dialects (from egypt to the east; aye is apparelty a verient of yes in English-details uncertain)

but Is Malik independantly evolved, or is it indeed a loan word from Arabic? because If what Spawn found is right, I've got one heck of a headache

[Elmetiacos]

I never said it was impossible-just somewhat unusual, that's all. (I even have examples of me own: aye in english, compared to aye in sudani arabic. both= yes. aye in saudani is cognate to aywa, and a in varios eastern arabic dialects (from egypt to the east; aye is apparelty a verient of yes in English-details uncertain)

but Is Malik independantly evolved, or is it indeed a loan word from Arabic? because If what Spawn found is right, I've got one heck of a headache

Outside Arabic speaking regions, Malik only seems to be used by Muslims, so it looks very likely to have been loaned from Arabic. No Indo-European root makes any sense unless it's possible to get from honey or milk to a ruler.

[Kuningaz]

Hm interesting, any books you would recommend me to read about germanic etymology?

[Cartaphilus]

Outside Arabic speaking regions, Malik only seems to be used by Muslims, so it looks very likely to have been loaned from Arabic. No Indo-European root makes any sense unless it's possible to get from honey or milk to a ruler.

Malik came from the semitic root mlk and the meaning is obviously king or lord.
In fact the God Melqart would be the King of the City.

[Kuningaz]

Wow was really interesting to read about this, unfortunately I almost don't know anything about proto germanic languages. I got a question though: are the Sweboz somehow related to modern day Schwaben? (just cause it sounds so similar). Ah and as an Austrian I gotta tell you I'm really thankfull for your great work, no problem with you being American at all...

[ziegenpeter]

I got a question though: are the Sweboz somehow related to modern day Schwaben?

Yes, indeed in modern german the Sweboz are called "sueben" and they've given the name for the modern Schwaben. This phenomenon is the same for other germanic tribes: The francs, Bajuwaren (Bayern), Alamani, Saxons, Frisians, Chatti (Hessen) etc.
However, this doesnt always imply a straight descendence from these tribes.

EDIT: In case someone wants to be given sources, I'll look them up later.

[Viking_Wårlord]

Yes, indeed in modern german the Sweboz are called "sueben" and they've given the name for the modern Schwaben. This phenomenon is the same for other germanic tribes: The francs, Bajuwaren (Bayern), Alamani, Saxons, Frisians, Chatti (Hessen) etc.
However, this doesnt always imply a straight descendence from these tribes.

EDIT: In case someone wants to be given sources, I'll look them up later.

Not exactly,the Swabian region got croosed by many tribes during the barbarian invasions,
that's why Swabians are Germanic but not 'genetically' Swêboz...

The protuguese are the actual descendants of the Swêboz

[ziegenpeter]

Not exactly,the Swabian region got croosed by many tribes during the barbarian invasions,
that's why Swabians are Germanic but not 'genetically' Swêboz...

Why do you introduce your post by "not exactly", if you don't contradict me?
I was just saying that the name(!) has its origin from sweboz but, to quote myself,

this doesnt always imply a straight descendence from these tribes.

Sorry but my dictionary didn't give me a translation for prevailance, only for prevail, so I assume its the corresponding noun.
SO we have "prevailance" as a meaning, which is IMHO a notion that can be found in the suffix "-dom"
we have "jugement" and "time"... hmm and you say the meanings in old norse are "prevailance" or "time", right? I wonder where the jugement is coming from...

Please use the "Edit" button.

[Kuningaz]

Mother tongue is (Austrian) German

[blitzkrieg80]

I agree with Ziegenpeter- Viking_Warlord, I had a similar reaction in that you come across as unnecessarily antagonistic, but I at least prompted such a response toward me by saying you were not correct and while it's your right to have whatever attitude you want, don't expect to people to take that attitude or appreciate it. The Indo-European root *sue- rather ensures that there is no exclusiveness to those who call themselves 'Swabbian', meaning "one's own" as you know, although you are correct in that the later Migration Period Germanic tribes assume the identity of Suebi even though they were not directly related to Arminius' confederation or that named by Tacitus.

[edit] I just realized that maybe there is a language issue going on- in English, 'related' is not necessarily by blood, so Ziegenpeter was referring to the 'name' which is indeed related... yet it is also true there is no evidence genetically linking the original Suebi with the later Suebi (and their territory is vastly different between classical references), although there is no way to verify ethnicity or genetics, so it's a rather moot point in that specific sense.

The Portuguese are not 'the Suebi'. Tribes under the identity of the Suebi did invade, but so did Celtiberians and Romans, while retaining non-Indo-European elements, yet I would not say they are 'this' or 'that', but you probably are just referring to the best known Suebi of Late Antiquity, so that is correct in that very limited sense.


* For those curious on -dōm / 'doom' - it is related to 'deem' and 'do':

A Handbook of Germanic Etymology by Vladimir Orel :



Altenglisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch von F. Holthausen :



Language and history in the early Germanic world by D.H. Green
(warning- large size) :

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Someone had asked about a good book to read on this kind of thing, so there is an answer for ya (DH Green)

I believe on the Isle of Man a judge is still called a Doomster, or something like that.

nice fact, Elmetiacos - i didn't know that - very interesting

[ziegenpeter]

Mother tongue is (Austrian) German

Well great, because I only know german books about this.

@Blitzkrieg: Thanks for your clarification and the Links/pics.

[Viking_Wårlord]

Wow was really interesting to read about this, unfortunately I almost don't know anything about proto germanic languages. I got a question though: are the Sweboz somehow related to modern day Schwaben? (just cause it sounds so similar). Ah and as an Austrian I gotta tell you I'm really thankfull for your great work, no problem with you being American at all...

Yes,the Swêboz came from the actual Swabian region but it's descendants are the Portuguese...