Linguistics discussion (split from new factions thread)

[gamegeek2]

"Allah" was formed from the gemination of the "l"s in al-ilah, "the god." The semitic root would be ylh or lh.

In Semitic languages, there is a system of roots which can be used to form new words, this has been happening for a long time. Foreign words are easily incorporated with this system. Take the root k-t-b, which conveys the idea of writing. A very small sample of the many words in Arabic that are derived from this root.

kitab - book
kātib - writer (m)
kataba - to write
kutayyib - booklet
takātaba - to correspond
maktab - office
maktaba - library
miktāb - typewriter
maktūb - written

And a small sample of the Hebrew words derived from the same k-t-b root.

katab - reporter (m)
ktib - spelling
katub - written
ktab - handwriting

It is even seen in Maltese, the only Semtic language to use the Latin Alphabet as the primary alphabet

ktieb - book
kittieb - writer
miktub - written

A good EB example is the root q-d-$, meaning "holy/sacred." In Punic, "sh" becomes "s," so we have HaParasim HaQdosim (Sacred Band Cavalry). The same root is seen in Hebrew "Miqdash," as in HaBeit HaMiqdash, which literally translates as "The House [of] The Temple." Notice the pattern of adding "mi" or "ma" to the front of a root to get a building/object from an idea.

So we have the root s-g-d, "worship, bow." By adding "ma-" to the front we get Aramaic "Masgid," "place of worship," and Arabic "Masjid," meaning "mosque," most likely derived from an Aramaic dialect, likely Nabataean. And d-r-s, the root for "learn" is seen in Arabic "madrasa," "school."

[Ibrahim]

"Allah" was formed from the gemination of the "l"s in al-ilah, "the god." The semitic root would be ylh or lh.

In Semitic languages, there is a system of roots which can be used to form new words, this has been happening for a long time. Foreign words are easily incorporated with this system. Take the root k-t-b, which conveys the idea of writing. A very small sample of the many words in Arabic that are derived from this root.

kitab - book
kātib - writer (m)
kataba - to write
kutayyib - booklet
takātaba - to correspond
maktab - office
maktaba - library
miktāb - typewriter
maktūb - written

And a small sample of the Hebrew words derived from the same k-t-b root.

katab - reporter (m)
ktib - spelling
katub - written
ktab - handwriting

It is even seen in Maltese, the only Semtic language to use the Latin Alphabet as the primary alphabet

ktieb - book
kittieb - writer
miktub - written

A good EB example is the root q-d-$, meaning "holy/sacred." In Punic, "sh" becomes "s," so we have HaParasim HaQdosim (Sacred Band Cavalry). The same root is seen in Hebrew "Miqdash," as in HaBeit HaMiqdash, which literally translates as "The House [of] The Temple." Notice the pattern of adding "mi" or "ma" to the front of a root to get a building/object from an idea.

So we have the root s-g-d, "worship, bow." By adding "ma-" to the front we get Aramaic "Masgid," "place of worship," and Arabic "Masjid," meaning "mosque," most likely derived from an Aramaic dialect, likely Nabataean. And d-r-s, the root for "learn" is seen in Arabic "madrasa," "school."

just to add: Maltese is decended from a variety of Arabic releted to Siculo-Arabic (arabic in Sicily).

otherwise, nice work.

[gamegeek2]

It is descended from [Maghrebi] Arabic, this is seen by -in as one of many plurals (also seen in Arabic), as opposed to normal Semitic -im. However, genetic studies comparing the Maltese people with the Lebanese show overwhelming similarity (the Phoenicians were from around Lebanon)

[Owen Glyndwr]

Wow, absolutely fascinating, I've always really loved languages, and their origins. This makes me really look forward to College now (I plan to minor in linguistics), but yeah, keep going!

[gamegeek2]

Thanks.

[Elmetiacos]

Hopeless Case Languages

1. Getic (Thracian, Dacian, Daco-Thracian...)
What can we get from Duridanov - http://www.kroraina.com/thrac_lang/thrac_1.html ?
We've got some words recorded in Greek or Latin, but a lot are names for plants, which obviously aren't much use. Midne means a village. There's a village called Poltymbria from which Duridanov derives *poltyn- meaning a wooden fortification. Skalme means a sword. The Thracian nobles are called the Zibythides. There's the tribal name Satrai which is possibly related to Sanskrit and Persian ksat(h)ra and means power or authority, a form of government? There's also the personal name Taruthin/Tarusinas/Tarutinos which apparently meaning "holding a spear" - pluralise that and it's a ready made unit name. But how? All the names are given Greek or Roman dress; there doesn't seem to be any grammar discernable. Thracian inscriptions are very thin on the ground indeed and there are none in Dacian. The longest is from Kjolmen, written in the Greek alphabet. It says:
ILASNLETEDNLEDNENIDAKATROSO
EBA.ROZESASNÊNETESAIGEKOA
NBLABAÊGN
To which I'm forced to say WTF?!
P.Dimitrov (http://www.nbu.bg/PUBLIC/IMAGES/File...13_01_2009.pdf) suggests NBLABÊGN is copied from a Greek formula and means "do not damage/destroy (this inscription)" ASN(E) means "whoever", -e endings are probably genitives and IGEKOA could be a perfect tense before basically giving up after getting il asn' leted n'led ne ni dakatroso Evaroze sas nê n'etesa igekoa - and you can't blame him.
Back to Duridanov, who translates the name Dentusucu/Dentusykos/Dentysykos as "daughter of the clan" which suggests that you might have a nominative ending in -u. But if that's right, why are the Greek forms masculine? Does Thracian have no grammatical gender, like Armenian?
We've only got conjectural words:
bredas - pasture
bur - man
diza - fortress
mezena - horseman
rezas - king
rumba-anga? "curved blade" > rhompaia, falx
skaplis - axe
taru - spear
taruthin - spearman

We can only guess at how plurals were formed, but if we guess at the usual Indo-European sorts of endings we'd have the following unit names, assuming -n- is somehow agentive:

mezenas - generic horsemen
taruthinai - generic spearmen
sklapenai - axemen
rumbanganai - falxmen
zibuthizas - noble cavalry
bres skalmana - shortswordsmen (I'm pushing it now...)
kikanas - skirmishers (tribal name Cicones is said to mean "the quick people")

Building-wise, with no words for temple, it might be necessary to borrow Phrygian kavar "sacred site" and iman "idol" with more made up inflections for deity names. I was quite confident about a reconstructed Getic naming language when I started writing this. Now... meh.

[Elmetiacos]

2. Lusitanian
First an apology because I don't know quite what ended up happening in EB1 with Lusitanian. It looks as if the project was abandoned before it was finished and Celtiberian names used instead.

I got a bit obsessed with this a while ago, particularly with a possible link between Lusitanian and Ligurian or Lepontic. The reason for this is the word PALA. It appears on an inscription, probably a memorial, usually classified as Lepontic. The inscription is written in an old Italic alphabet similar to Etruscan, on two staves with round heads; one reads slaniai : uerKalai : Pala and the other Tisiui : PiuoTialui : Pala. The two staves look like elongated Basque Hilarri.

We've got more writing in Lusitanian than in Dacian or Thracian, but still very little and we don't have as many place or personal names because it looks as if the Lusitanian rulers may have spoken Celtic. There are a whole three and a half Lusitanian inscriptions which are fairly easy to look up - they're even on Wikipedia. One says OILAM TREBOPALA INDO PORCOM LAEBO COMAIAM ICCONA LOIMINA OILAM USSEAM TREBARUNE INDI TAUROM IFADEM REUE which is usually translated as something like "A sheep (or ewe) for Trebopala and a pig for Laebo one of the same age for Iccona Loimina, a sheep of one year of age for Trebarune and a breeding bull for Reue." The inscription makes it hard to say Lusitanian is Celtic, because it's kept Indo-European P (porcom) which Celtic didn't (Irish orc "piglet") and the word for bull has the root tauro- instead of *tarwo- we'd expect from a Celtic language. Also there isn't a word for "and" like indi in any known Celtic language. In On The Indo-European Origin of Two Lusitanian Theonyms, Witczak thinks Trebopala is a goddess whose name means "Protectress of the Home" or "Protectress of the Tribe" and that Laebo should be *Lahebo, a dative plural of Laho, the equivalent of the Roman Lares. He also thinks (as do others) Iccona is a similar goddess to the Gaulish Epona.

But what if pala doesn't mean "protectress"? what if it's some sort of sacred stone like in the Ligurian/Lepontic inscriptions? Katia Maia-Bessa suggested this in her paper Syncrétisme Religieux dans la Lusitanie Romaine (I'm afraid it's in French) but without actually citing Ligurian or Lepontic. It got me thinking about a link and the possibility that both languages are "Old European" - Indo-European languages which in the early Iron Age got replaced by Celtic.

Apart from the inscriptions the other source for Lusitanian is dedications to local deities from the Roman period and usually in Latin. Unfortunately none of them say "pala" anywhere. However, Ligurian was said to have been much more widely spoken before the Etruscans, Gauls and Romans moved in, and sometimes a sign of a place having once been Ligurian is said to be a name ending with -sc-. There are only two -sc- names in Roman Iberia; Metallum Vipascense and Magasca and they're both in Lusitanian territory. This is getting a long post and I should start talking about what use it could be in EB2...