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Thread: The Dutch

  1. #91
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dutch

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II View Post
    This is known as a non sequitur.

    The Danes were the only occupied people that managed to oppose the deportation of their Jewish citizens with any success. Although that episode, too, is surrounded with myths, it is at least something to write home about.

    I have no time for Europeans who boast about 'their' war past or belittle that of others. That's usually just crap meant to serve present-day purposes.
    Getting rather specific aren't we, never said anything about our heroic behaviour in WW2 that would make me look rather stupid, considering, I again, said there is such a thing as a dutch identity. So far that has gotten me slavery, Rawagade, and the collaboration with the nazi's between 1940 and 1945. Self-denial is an identity as well, see Luigi's post on page two.

    Why Were So Many Dutch Jews Killed?
    The percentage of Jews from The Netherlands murdered by the Germans and their associates in World War II was higher than in any other Western European country
    .

    Quite simple, dutch civil records you could see what religion someone had all the nazi's had a nice list to work with, and it's a small easily managed country. Where to hide there is no nowhere to hide.
    Last edited by Fragony; 12-14-2008 at 09:48.

  2. #92
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dutch

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Self-denial is an identity as well, see Luigi's post on page two.
    Once again, what is this 'self' you are talking about? Does it encompass only the supposed 'heroic' past or also the greed, cruelty and stupidity that were part of Dutch history?

    National identity is a catch-phrase that never passes a reality test. To me, nationhood is defined by the laws and institutions of a nation, not by a supposed national identity. I'm a Renaniste, as Luigi will immediately recognise.
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  3. #93
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dutch

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II View Post
    Once again, what is this 'self' you are talking about? Does it encompass only the supposed 'heroic' past or also the greed, cruelty and stupidity that were part of Dutch history?
    Why do you keep throwing it on an a heroic past when I have used no such words? We share a language, customs, oddities distinctly dutch as most here would agree, what you chose to attribute to it is up to you free country, if that would be the indo-china massacres or handing over these nosy fellas all fine with me.

  4. #94
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re : The Dutch

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Why Were So Many Dutch Jews Killed?
    The percentage of Jews from The Netherlands murdered by the Germans and their associates in World War II was higher than in any other Western European country
    .

    Quite simple, dutch civil records you could see what religion someone had all the nazi's had a nice list to work with, and it's a small easily managed country. Where to hide there is no nowhere to hide.
    The article already rubbished both excuses:


    Nice lists and a well-managed country? Why, indeed it was, and far from being on massive strikes, the famous Dutch work ethic functioned unhampered. What's more, it appears this Dutch Protestant work ethic was more about finishing off a job than about any ethics:

    In their preparations for the extermination of the Jews living in The Netherlands, the Germans could count on the assistance of the greater part of the Dutch administrative infrastructure. The occupiers had to employ only a relatively limited number of their own. Dutch policemen rounded up the families to be sent to their deaths in Eastern Europe. Trains of the Dutch railways staffed by Dutch employees transported the Jews to camps in The Netherlands which were transit points to Auschwitz, Sobibor, and other death camps. Van der Zee writes that with respect to Dutch collaboration, Eichmann later said "The transports run so smoothly that it is a pleasure to see."



    Nowhere to hide in a small and flat country? Apparantly, there were no places to hide for Jews about to be murdered, but plenty for Dutch to evade labour service:

    Yet another reason sometimes given for the high Jewish death-toll is that The Netherlands is a small and flat country in which it is more difficult to hide than in Belgium or France. This is a weak argument since, in the later war years, many hiding places were found for Dutch workers who had been called up for labor service in Germany.

    -~-~-~<o(o{O}o)o>~-~-~-

    A Jew was twice as safe in Catholic Belgium. A Jew was three times as safe in France, even in Vichy. Four times as safe in Italy. In fact, in the 1940's, a Jew was even safer in Berlin than in Amsterdam.

    Part of the explanation is, that contrary to public perception, in West Europe, including Germany, Jews were much safer amidst Catholics than amidst Protestants. All the later uproar about the indifference of the silent pope Pius? Pah. For real cold, bitter disinterest in the plight of Jews, read some Protestant sermons of the time.
    It is in Protestant theology, and in Calvinism even moreso than in Lutheranism or Episcopialism, that a man's misfortune is regarded rightful punishment from God for the error of his ways. And the reverse: a man's plight is proof of his wickedness. Being send to Ausswitch meant one had deserved it. And if one deserved it, obviously one ought to be send to there. Can't interfere with the will of God.

    Short of memory and long of hypocrisy they are, our pious Protestant friends.

    Sorry Fragony, I hate it when threads descent into WWII debates yet again, but it is a hobby of mine to debunk national mythology. A Renaniste will carefully point out that nationhood is as much about remembering a common past as about common 'forgetfulness' about the past.
    I'll go one better and say that there isn't a past at all. There is but a representation of the past. In the case of nationalism, a construction of a past to create and bind a community, often were there wasn't a community to begin with. A construction founded on narratives that are, if not necessarily false, based on selective cherry-picking of events, out of which a narrative is build to support contemporary demands. A past does not create an identity, an identity creates itself a fitting past.

    There is a gaping hole in the above: a construct of a past creates a national identity, and this identity creates a construction of a past. This is a circular reasoning that remains unexplained. This is because I, in fact, haven't got a clue what I'm going on about You shall all have to work it out for yourselves. I shall leave it it as a challenge. With no small hope of enticing Adrian into further discussion and lure him back into the abyss of Backroom debate.
    Last edited by Louis VI the Fat; 12-15-2008 at 01:55.
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  5. #95
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : The Dutch

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Sorry Fragony, I hate it when threads descent into WWII debates yet again, but it is a hobby of mine to debunk national mythology.
    No national mythology your version is the commonly accepted one, you confusing what has been said about us not what we say ourselves. National myths should be known to the population I'd say, good luck finding a dutchman who has heard of that strike. There is a whole lot more to the high number of jews deported not in the least the role of the jews themselves.

    http://www.humboldt.edu/~rescuers/bo...s.Holland.html

    The second factor was the German device of setting up a Jewish Council, the Joodsche Raad, composed of a group of prominent middle-class Jewish leaders, for the purpose of conveying German commands efficiently to the Jewish population. The Jewish leaders reasoned among themselves, as they did in other occupied countries, that their role in keeping the channels of communication with their German oppressers open, and of maintaining law and order in the newly formed chaotic ghetto population of uprooted families, would help the bereft Jews more than harm them. In retrospect it is easy to see how wrong they were, as the Council quickly became the unwitting tool of the German destruction machinery, actually delivering the Jews directly to the German deportation trains.

    ^-didn't work out that well for them
    Last edited by Fragony; 12-15-2008 at 09:34.

  6. #96
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : The Dutch

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Dutch policemen rounded up the families to be sent to their deaths in Eastern Europe.
    Some did, but the majority of policemen didn't. Some Jews were rounded up by Dutch police, but the majority of Jewish victims were rounded up in German razzia's conducted by SS, Grüne Polizei and the regular army.

    The source which you quote is rich on hyperbole, as is the work of the historian, Nanda van der Zee, on which it is partly based.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    In fact, in the 1940's, a Jew was even safer in Berlin than in Amsterdam.
    Eh?

    You know as well as I that such comparisons are crap. But if you can't even get your crap right, what does it tell us about your real views?

    Let's see if it's even approximately true.

    By 1943 all Berlin Jews had been officielly deported. The city was declared 'Judenrein', i.e. 'clear of Jews', in that year. After the war it appeared that about 8.000 (out of almost 200.000) had managed to survive undercover. That's 4 % of the total. In Amsterdam there were about 90.000 Jews in 1940. Just over 25% survived, equalling about 23.000. If you factor in the comparative sizes of both cities, the difference becomes even more .. thought-provoking.

    Regarding the February Strike (as it is known here) of 1941, this was the first and largest mass protest against the deportation of Jews anywhere in Europe. Are we to conclude that a Dutchman was ten times more likely to protest the deportations than a German, twenty-five times more than a Frenchman, etcetera...?

    As for you statement that during 1940-1945 Jews were safer in Catholic countries and areas - try good old Catholic Austria for size. Not only did it do worse than most other nations in protecting Jews, it also provided a remarkable number of the actual persecutors. Among them Arthur Seyss-Inquart, Hitler's Reichskommissar for the occupied Netherlands.

    As you can see I don't shy away from a good peeing contest. Or a crapping contest, rather. But it has little to do with history as we pretend to know it.
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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re : Re: Re : The Dutch

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II View Post
    Crap
    Ah, but is that your hurt historical sense speaking, or your hurt national pride? Perhaps a mix?

    I would venture to say that it is not just the wee bit of hyperbole and poetic license in my presentation of WWII in the Netherlands that got your back up.

    Could it be, that maybe you too are not insensitive to nationalism? That your Dutch identity then is, in fact, present, and is based on more than just 'laws and institutions'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian
    National identity is a catch-phrase that never passes a reality test. To me, nationhood is defined by the laws and institutions of a nation, not by a supposed national identity.
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  8. #98
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Re: Re : The Dutch

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Could it be, that maybe you too are not insensitive to nationalism? That your Dutch identity then is, in fact, present, and is based on more than just 'laws and institutions'?
    Was waiting for you to move in for the kill.

    But AdrianII is correct that van der Zee work is controversial, often accused of being a political pamflet rather then a real historical study. It is dripping with rethoric and isn't that much respected nowadays.
    Last edited by Fragony; 12-15-2008 at 15:04.

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Re: Re : The Dutch

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Could it be, that maybe you too are not insensitive to nationalism?
    Oh, stop the second-guessing. Let us say that I am related to people who were personally involved in all this. The good and the bad were always mixed in these episodes. The art is in getting the mixture right.

    And what you did in your post is akin to mixing large chunks of Fourme D'Ambert into a bowl of lemonade and topping it off with potato chips and soy sauce.
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  10. #100
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dutch

    although that episode, too, is surrounded with myths, it is at least something to write home about.

    I have no time for Europeans who boast about 'their' war past or belittle that of others. That's usually just crap meant to serve present-day purposes.


    Yep. You even make the time when someone isn't boasting, pre-emptive pc strike.

    Regarding the February Strike (as it is known here) of 1941, this was the first and largest mass protest against the deportation of Jews anywhere in Europe

    Make up your mind. Can rub the wrong way can't it I have never seen such nationalistic zeal for quite some time. Stuck between two reflexes aren't we. A (somewhat) hostile when being proud of anything that goes back before you, but still you do appear to be kinda stung by Louis. I kinda am but that just me.
    Last edited by Fragony; 12-15-2008 at 15:33.

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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re : Re: Re : Re: Re : The Dutch

    Let us say that I am related to people who were personally involved in all this. The good and the bad were always mixed in these episodes. The art is in getting the mixture right.

    And what you did in your post is akin to mixing large chunks of Fourme D'Ambert into a bowl of lemonade and topping it off with potato chips and soy sauce.
    I love fusion cooking!


    As to the other points: we all are related to people who lived the age. All my grandparents and great-grandparents were in the resistance.

    Which means, as most Europeans will know: they weren't. Or rather, they somewhat were. They did what everybody did: they tried to get through as well as they could. They did some things right, other things...not so much. WWII is not black and white, it is grey. The good and the bad were always mixed in these episodes indeed. The divide is certainly not between nations, nor, more relevantly, even between individuals. It was within each person. Empathy, context, an eye for the human scale of events are what is needed to write the history of WWII.


    Edit: which is not to say that my post wasn't factually correct. With the exception of saying 'Berlin' where it should've been 'Germany'. If one compares the number of Jews pre-1933 with the number that were murdered, Germany's murder percentage is rather low. This is of course because many German Jews had fled abroad beore 1939, and were later murdered abroad or from abroad. And later appeared on the statistics of these countries. Lies, gross lies and statistics: shelter a lot a fleeing Jews in the 1930's, whom are duly at great risk a few years later because they haven't had time to integrate well in their host societies, and you end up in the history books as a nation with a high percentage of murdered Jews, easily surpassing Germany.

    Which shows that it is all too easy to impose a ridiculous narrative on historical events while still sticking to historical fact. Which is pretty much what all the different nationalistic histories of European nations are all about.
    Last edited by Louis VI the Fat; 12-15-2008 at 18:00.
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  12. #102
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dutch

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Make up your mind. Can rub the wrong way can't it I have never seen such nationalistic zeal for quite some time.
    Where's the zeal. The February Strike is a fact. So is the record of the Danes, which is better than ours. Without context however, these comparisons go nowhere. Denmark for instance was Hitler's pet fellow Aryan nation, hence his tendency to go soft on them at the start and take their contrary attitude in his stride. Poland or Bohemia on the other hand got to feel the wrath of the Führer straight away and suffered much, much worse, in both human and economic terms, than either Denmark or The Netherlands (or the two combined, if you want).

    I regard nationhood as a project, looking to the future instead of the past. That's how all great nations were shaped. Let's hope we will be one day, and let's look forward to it instead of staring vacuously into a past that never was.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dutch

    Much controversity even when using the same number, that's the thing with history you can never be certain. I think the dutch 'myth' is actually from before the war, a lot of jews used the netherlands to flee to the US prior to the invasion, and in the US the cookies&rainbows view of the dutch in WW2 is the most persistant. There was such a thing as the dutch resistance and there is such a thing as the highest number people joining the SS, both facts. We have the most dead jews but also the highest amount of survivors, also facts. I feel really uncomfortable discussing the netherlands under german rule, but do remember that it one bad man can undo the good work of ten, and the other way around. I have always regarded the holocaust as a european crime not a german one and we are just as guilty as everyone but taking on that role is a bit hard when you have so much to point at, but you picked the most radical interpretation keep that mind.

    instead of staring vacuously into a past that never was.

    Or focussing on a position that was never taken.
    Last edited by Fragony; 12-15-2008 at 18:32.

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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re : Re: The Dutch

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II View Post
    I regard nationhood as a project, looking to the future instead of the past. That's how all great nations were shaped. Let's hope we will be one day, and let's look forward to it instead of staring vacuously into a past that never was.
    But how can one even build a -forward-looking - nation without a national identity? And how can one possibly have an identity without a past?
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  15. #105
    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : The Dutch

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II View Post
    Some did, but the majority of policemen didn't. Some Jews were rounded up by Dutch police, but the majority of Jewish victims were rounded up in German razzia's conducted by SS, Grüne Polizei and the regular army.
    That reminds me of a story my late grandmother told me (several times): they had an old friend of the family who was an officer in the Royal Marechaussee. He along with several collegues refused to arrest several men when directed so by the Germans (I believe they were jews, but I'm not entirely sure- at any rate they weren't what any of us would call criminals in any sense of the word), and was discharged dishonoroubly because of it.

    After the war, they refused to reinstate him in his position because of the "dishonourable" label
    He tried to build a new life with a different job, but for various reasons he became an alcoholic and died a couple of decades afterwards because of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis IV
    A Jew was twice as safe in Catholic Belgium. A Jew was three times as safe in France, even in Vichy.
    I don't remember any numbers on how many jews the Vichy regime deported; but Petain persecuted them eagerly without much encouragement from the Germans. Thousends of jews fled there under the assumption that they'd be safe there, it being a non-occupied zone afterall. I hold little love for Jacques Chirac, but he at least had the moral fortitude to admit that many French actively and voluntarily participated in these horrorible crimes- something wich Mitterand had catagorically denied a few years earlier.

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Re: The Dutch

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    But how can one even build a -forward-looking - nation without a national identity? And how can one possibly have an identity without a past?
    A political project requires no collective identity, no common religion, no shared history.

    Look at the United States, an immigrant society that used to be a shining beacon to mankind long after the novelty of the young Republic had worn off. Why? Because it invited (and often enabled) each and every immigrant to realise his own view of the 'good life'. Do you think that many Americans feel less American because their ancestors have different roots from the Pilgrim Fathers, the Protestant faith and the English language? They don't give a hoot. It's their country, as much as anyone else's.

    Why should we restrict a country's future by adhering to all these humbug assumptions. Why fret about a supposed national identity and a 'common heritage' that is considered to be in our genes or in our memes or whatever and that tells us who 'belongs' and who does not 'belong' to the nation? Meh.
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  17. #107
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dutch

    'frontier' ahum. Relativily modern crusade.
    Last edited by Fragony; 12-15-2008 at 19:38.

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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re : Re: Re : The Dutch

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian
    A political project requires no collective identity, no common religion, no shared history.

    Look at the United States
    Would you be terribly dissapointed if I said that I have an entirely different idea about any lack of collective identity in the US? Freedom of religion and freedom from history are the identity of the US. Well those and several other ingredients.

    The US is not more succesful at absorbing immigrants because it has a less developed idea of collective identity, but because it has a stronger sense of national identity than European countries.

    Why should we restrict a country's future by adhering to all these humbug assumptions. Why fret about a supposed national identity and a 'common heritage' that is considered to be in our genes or in our memes or whatever and that tells us who 'belongs' and who does not 'belong' to the nation? Meh.
    Ah, but now you reveal yourself to be an adherent of multi-culturalism. Or, of nationalophobia. The urge to deny any organic, historical or cultural identity out of a stated political goal of creating a new, and 'better' post-national and multi-etnic identity.

    It doesn't work and has gotten Western Europe into enormous trouble over the past few decades. This recent leftist top-down project is entirely different from America's ancient, bottom-up, national identity, even when both do bear a superficial resemblance.

    -~+~- -~+~- -~+~- -~+~- -~+~-

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenring View Post
    I don't remember any numbers on how many jews the Vichy regime deported; but Petain persecuted them eagerly without much encouragement from the Germans. Thousands of jews fled there under the assumption that they'd be safe there, it being a non-occupied zone afterall. I hold little love for Jacques Chirac, but he at least had the moral fortitude to admit that many French actively and voluntarily participated in these horrorible crimes- something wich Mitterand had catagorically denied a few years earlier.
    Well, naturally I have a thing or two to say about national myths in other European countries as well. I limited myself to the Netherlands since that was the subject of this thread. But now that you've brought it up:

    Yes, Petain did indeed persecute Jews. And by the end of the war, 25% of French Jewry had been murdered while three quarters had found a safe haven in France during the war. In the Netherlands, there was no Petain, no Vichy, and no virtual civil war, yet 75% of Jews were murdered. I presented a single-sided version of Dutch WWII behaviour, but based on actual and correct numbers.
    Whatever the French fascists threw at the Jews, they were far safer even under fascist Petain than in the 'dutifully compliant' Netherlands, where, according to national myth, unlike elsewhere in Europe, there was little to no anti-Semitism, just 'unfortunate circumstances'.

    I appreciate Chirac for finally admitting in 1995 what French public opinion had gradually come to accept: that 'Vichy' was entirely of French making, and that 'circumstances' are no excuse. I would love for the Netherlands to also finally come to terms with it's dark past. Unfortunately, fear for financial claims has so far prevented any Dutch government from following the example of most of the other European countries. A few half-baked statements about unfortunate post-war treatment of returning Jews seems to be the grand total of official Dutch acceptance of its own responsibility.

    -~+~- -~+~- -~+~- -~+~- -~+~-

    The funny thing is, that both points above are deeply connected. 'Adrian's' urge to build a post-national, multi-etnic identity is the direct result of the aftermath of the moral compromisation during WWII and the stubborn denial of that until the 1960's.

    Since 1968 - which was at heart a generational conflict - a new generation has tried to prove that they were not their parents or grandparents. They set out to prove that they, unlike their parents, would shelter Jews. That they did not share the pityful, petit, and provincial mental world of their parents. Nationalism became suspect. Any national identity the sign of proto-fascism. The 'Dark skinned immigrant' is a substitute Jew. And the more pityful and helpless he is, the better. In the multi-cultural mind, there must be a helpless 'other' - incapable of any independent action, and a brutal and oppressive 'host country' - the source of all misfortune of this 'other'. See, for example, HoreTore's ambulance thread.

    Milticultural post-nationalism does not in the least bit accept 'the other' as equal or even independent. It can only accept them as hapless and helpless. It does not create a strong post-national identity, it can only make collective identity suspect. By both mechanisms, the function of a strong collectivity that can easily absorb strong newcomers is prevented.
    Last edited by Louis VI the Fat; 12-15-2008 at 21:28.
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  19. #109
    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Re: Re : The Dutch

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Whatever the French fascists threw at the Jews, they were far safer even under fascist Petain than in the 'dutifully compliant' Netherlands, where, according to national myth, unlike elsewhere in Europe, there was little to no anti-Semitism, just 'unfortunate circumstances'.
    I've never heard someone make that claim before. Part of the reason why many people (myself included) despise comparisons between the current muslim community and the jews before and during WW2 is because people are fully aware that they were always considered suspect at best. Over here it was mostly ol' fashioned prejudices, religious ire and bigotry rather than some sort of "race" ideal.

    Nevertheless, there certainly were circumstances that made the deportation of jews easier than it was in France:
    1) unlike Vichy France, the Netherlands didn't border a neutral country that could serve as a safe refuge (Spain)
    2) there were, relatively speaking, more jews in the Netherlands than in France and they were mostly concentrated around the larger towns and cities in Holland
    3) somewhat cliche but still true; the Dutch comprehensive census records wich showed how many jews there were and their general whereabouts. (did France hold similar censuses based on religious affiliation?)

    That wasn't the point though; rather that the persecution of the Dutch jews occurred under collaborating civil servants with German and Austrian people at the helm. The Vichy persecution was entirely French.

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI
    Unfortunately, fear for financial claims has so far prevented any Dutch government from following the example of most of the other European countries. A few half-baked statements about unfortunate post-war treatment of returning Jews seems to be the grand total of official Dutch acceptance of its own responsibility.
    I don't consider myself particulary knowledgable about the subject, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the Dutch record on returning property and whatnot to holocaust survivors to be atrocious. I'm open to any proof you can give me, so far I'm not impressed by your off hand knowledge of my country.

    Since 1968 - which was at heart a generational conflict - a new generation has tried to prove that they were not their parents or grandparents. They set out to prove that they, unlike their parents, would shelter Jews. That they did not share the pityful, petit, and provincial mental world of their parents. Nationalism became suspect. Any national identity the sign of proto-fascism. The 'Dark skinned immigrant' is a substitute Jew. And the more pityful and helpless he is, the better. In the multi-cultural mind, there must be a helpless 'other' - incapable of any independent action, and a brutal and oppressive 'host country' - the source of all misfortune of this 'other'. See, for example, HoreTore's ambulance thread.

    Milticultural post-nationalism does not in the least bit accept 'the other' as equal or even independent. It can only accept them as hapless and helpless. It does not create a strong post-national identity, it can only make collective identity suspect. By both mechanisms, the function of a strong collectivity that can easily absorb strong newcomers is prevented.
    Seriously, I'm not a fan of what we'd call "multiculturalism" because of the association with failed integration policies and denial of (partially) ethnic causes in social problems in the last century. But the picture you paint both here and in the ambulance thread is a caricature.

  20. #110
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re : Re: Re : Re: Re : The Dutch

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenring View Post
    Netherlands, where, according to national myth, unlike elsewhere in Europe, there was little to no anti-Semitism, just 'unfortunate circumstances'.
    I've never heard someone make that claim before.
    I have heard the claim that there was little anti-Semitism in the Netherlands before. For example, five seconds ago from you yourself.


    How? Because again, a Dutchman repeats the myth that the astonishingly high percentage of murdered Jews in the Netherlands had little to nothing to do with any Dutch behaviour. That there were just some 'collaborating civil servants', and all the other excuses and that it all happened under the helm of German and Austrian orders. This, to top it off, you contrast with France, where anti-Semitic genocide was of French / Vichy's own making, that is, worse than the Dutch and that you are delighted with French formal acceptance of responsibility by Chirac. You overlook the whole point of the acceptance: it is an acceptance of one's own actions, an end to formal claims that the mass murder of Jews was a strictly German affair.

    Let me make be clear: the Germans did not at any time at gunpoint force the Dutch to round up their Jews.

    They didn't have too. Nowhere in Europe did they need to. All they needed was to unleash the dark undercurrent of their occupied countries. In the Netherlands, this led to an orgy of anti-Semitic violence on a scale unparalled in Western Europe. In France, three quarters of Jewry was saved.

    Yet France has accepted responsibility, formally, fifteen years ago, and in public opinion, slowly in the decades before. Almost all of Europe has.
    This is stark contrast to the Netherlands, were it is both common public myth and formal government policy that there is no responsibility whatsoever. In this, the Netherlands stands virtually alone amongst formerly occupied countries. The Netherlands even sees fit to lecture other countries.

    I don't consider myself particulary knowledgable about the subject, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the Dutch record on returning property and whatnot to holocaust survivors to be atrocious. I'm open to any proof you can give me, so far I'm not impressed by your off hand knowledge of my country.
    Well I am impressed by my knowledge of the Netherlands since I succeeded in - apparantly for the first time - pointing out to several Dutchmen here the national myth of an 'innocent' WWII history, and the fact that the Netherlands has never officially accepted any responsibility for the behaviour of the government in exile and the Dutch state and its institutions at home during WWII.

    The Netherlands are one of the few remaining countries that refuses to accept responsibility. Even the neutral Swiss and Swedes accepted their wrongdoings. Small wonder that the myth persists when it is the official government policy.


    Good read.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    The issue of Dutch institutional and governmental apologies for Holocaust behavior came to the fore again with the unexpected apology of Dutch Railways to the Jewish community in September 2005. These belated apologies should be seen in a broader Dutch context. After World War II, many myths about crucial aspects of the Dutch Jews' fate substituted for history.

    Currently, the Dutch government's refusal to apologize to the Jewish community stands out even more. It should do so for both the collaboration with the German authorities in the Netherlands and the failure of the London government-in-exile to undertake whatever little it could have done for the persecuted Dutch Jews. In 2000 Prime Minister Wim Kok, under pressure, presented partial apologies for the postwar Dutch governments' treatment of the Jews. These expressed a new fallacy: that these failures were unintentional. In March 2005 Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende, at Yad Vashem in Jerusalem, described the deportation of Dutch Jewry as a "pitch-black" chapter in Dutch history. In April 2005, he became the first prime minister to mention Dutch wartime collaboration without, however, apologizing.


    More than sixty years after the end of World War II, occasionally the question reemerges in the Netherlands whether apologies to the Jewish community should be presented by the successor managers of those institutions that participated in the German-controlled process of detention and deportation of most Dutch Jews to their extermination. The same goes for the Dutch government, whose predecessors, in exile in London, ignored what happened to their country's Jews.

    [...]

    Myth and History

    The importance of these belated apologies goes far beyond the specific case of Dutch Railways. The expressions of regret should be seen in a broader Dutch context. After World War II, many myths about crucial aspects of the Dutch Jews' fate substituted for history. Major falsifications of national wartime history occurred throughout Europe, taking specific forms in different countries.

    In the Netherlands, there were courageous individuals who took major risks to rescue Jews. The Dutch authorities, on the other hand, executed almost all German orders without protest. Whereas the collaboration of the government authorities has largely been ignored, the size and effectiveness of the Dutch resistance movements has been greatly exaggerated as has the role of the major ones in helping the Jews. At the same time, the importance and numbers of the many Dutch collaborators with the Germans were diminished. Among the latter was a contingent of twenty-five thousand Dutch Waffen SS volunteers.[4]

    The myth of widespread Dutch resistance was most affected by the way Anne Frank's story was presented after the war. The publication of her diary, and later the movie based on it, created the impression of broad Dutch support for the Jews in wartime Netherlands. Particularly in the United States, the Anne Frank story fostered a very one-sided picture of Dutch resistance.[5] Almost all the emphasis in her story was put on her time in hiding, whereas no attention was paid to her struggle for survival in Auschwitz and Bergen-Belsen and eventual demise.

    Little if any attention was given to the fact that 8,000 of the 24,000 hidden Dutch Jews, including Anne Frank and her family, were betrayed by Dutchmen to the German occupiers. The reward for informing on Jews amounted to about 30 euro in today's money. Most of those betrayed were murdered in the death camps.[6]

    Another aspect of Anne Frank's life was only stressed in 1988 when Dutch filmmaker Willy Lindwer received the international Emmy award for his documentary The Last Seven Months of Anne Frank focusing on her short life after betrayal. The director of the Anne Frank House in Amsterdam demonstrated his support for the whitewashing of wartime Dutch history when he refused to allow Lindwer to film at the museum. Lindwer quotes him as saying: "Anne Frank is a symbol. Symbols should not be shown to die in a concentration camp."[

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  21. #111
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Re: Re : The Dutch

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    The US [..] has a stronger sense of national identity than European countries.
    Call it 'sense of purpose' and we are in agreement. Purpose is forward looking, identity politics is stagnant, inward-looking and plain dumb.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Ah, but now you reveal yourself to be an adherent of [..] a new, and 'better' post-national and multi-etnic identity.
    I want to work for a better state and a better country, if that's what you mean. Yeah, I subscribe to that.

    But a 'new multi-ethnic identity'? What is that? Does it imply that The Netherlands is at present mono-ethnic or something, and that it could or might be changed to multi-ethnic? Do you know how many people from all parts of the world have lived here, intermingled and built their own lives here for hundreds of years.

    And pray, what exactly would it mean if I had a 'multi-ethnic identity'. Would I be part white, part black? Part Chinese, part Albanian? Hahaha. It's just fashionable nonsense.
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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re : Re: Re : Re: Re : The Dutch

    Here is an excellent report about WWII, the Dutch, and the whitewashing of history on behalf of national mythology.

    ~_~_~_~~~+~+~~~_~_~_~

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II View Post
    But a 'new multi-ethnic identity'? What is that?
    It is not my terminonoly. It is the terminology of the people I disagree with. And who, amazingly, both clamour for multi-etnicity while simultanously denying the existence of etnicity.

    The term is somewhat interchangeble with multi-cultural. Which is often a mere euphemism for multi-etnic. Since etinicity is supposed to not exist, it is substituted by culture.

    Multi-cultural, of course, is an even more uneasy term than multi-etnic, since a) it assumes that nations are monolithic, that the Netherlands, or other countries, have but one single culture. And b) that culture is inextricably linked to one's etnicity. That is, if you look Moroccan, you are culturally Moroccan and not European. This is one of the great pitfalls of multiculturalism, the word as much as the concept. It is all the more silly, since it is a euphemism for something which supposedly doesn't even exist, yet which is always implied by the very phrase.

    ~_~_~_~~~+~+~~~_~_~_~


    Meanwhile, back to the topic of 'let's see the Dutch sweat a bit by bringing up non-glamourous aspects of Dutchness'.



    "Once again Dutch responsibility is denied and others are to blame for the fall of Srebrenica and the genocide that followed,"

    I notice remarkable parrallels between Dutch behaviour in WWII and Srebrenica. That largest European genocide after WWII. Perhaps if the Dutch had substituted their national war mythology for some soul-searching before 1995, they would've been better prepared?

    8000 Muslims murdered while the Dutch stood by. Well this time they didn't actively participate, which is progress of some sort.

    Although we'll never know for sure since the Dutch army destroyed the films of the events, and the Dutch government-financed report concluded, controversially but unsurprisingly, that there was little blame on the peacekeepers. The circumstances left them no choice.
    Nothing wrong then, with organising themselves a fine decadent party directly after the massacre to celebrate their safe delivery.

    The government did seven years later accept partial responsibility and resigned. Although elections were due a few weeks later anyway.

    In December 2006 the Dutch government awarded the Dutch UN peacekeepers that served in Srebrenica an insignia because they believe they "deserved recognition for their behaviour in difficult circumstances", also noting the limited mandate and the ill-equipped nature of the mission. However, survivors and relatives of the victims condemned the move calling it a "humiliating decision" and responded with protest rallies in The Hague, Assen (where the ceremony took place) and Bosnia's capital Sarajevo

    'Why are you so mean to the Dutch, Louis?'
    'Mean? There are five thousand threads that discuss the exploits of Pakistan, the US, the UK, Russia, Israel and China. Might as well have ourselves a thread about the Netherlands then that moves beyond drugs and prostitution for a chance. It is a medium sized European country'.
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  23. #113
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Re: Re : Re: Re : The Dutch

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    "Once again Dutch responsibility is denied and others are to blame for the fall of Srebrenica and the genocide that followed,"
    Still debunking national myths or are we stepping into hostile territory?

    clue, in Afghanistan we brought our own toys because you never know what allies are going to do('nt)

    Perfectly fine with some healthy critisism but this is kinda becomming it's own story is this about WW2 or about the dutch I am getting confused (and very annoyed). We not taking responsibility you have got to be kidding me it is the tool du jour of the equality-industry can't sneeze without gassing Anne Frank.
    Last edited by Fragony; 12-16-2008 at 03:32.

  24. #114
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Re: Re : Re: Re : The Dutch

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Still debunking national myths or are we stepping into hostile territory?
    Dis is da infomashun age, man. Louis doesn't know what the hell he is talking about. But he is all over you because he has found something on the Internet.
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  25. #115
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re : The Dutch

    'Sermon diplomacy'', that is, lecturing others, is a well known characteristic of Dutch diplomacy. Apparantly, they can't stand a bit of criticism themselves.

    This thread is called 'The Dutch', no? I believe that in threads named 'America' all the evil imperialism of America is discussed, with all our Dutch members seeing quite fit to lecture about Iraq, Vietnam, slavery and obesity. Same with threads about Israel, Pakistan, the UK. I seem to recall Fragony being a major critic of the current English political landscape. I remember a thread openend by Adrian about Finland's dark 20th century history.

    So no, exploring the dark side of the recent Dutch history is not at all unsympathetic or hostile. It is the common .org standard. The Netherlands simply usually escapes attention - until a thread was opened about it, that, lest we forgot, was opened by a Dutchman with the specific request to discuss Dutch topics. Yet when it moves from a self-congratulatory 'you Dutchies are so tolerant and enlightened and liberal' panic breaks lose.

    Well welcome to the Big League, chaps. Where one's history is debated by both outsiders and by fierce internal debate. Neither of which seems to happen a lot with Dutch history.




    Besides, it is important because I am exploring territory that is apparantly unchartered in Dutch public debate. I am shocked that most of what I wrote is apparantly news to our Dutch patrons. Please feel free to shoot holes in anything I've written, I shall happily oblige and respond to any criticism.
    And to think that I haven't even yet mentioned the Colonial War that raged in Indonesia after the war. Conveniently named, to this day, 'police actions'.
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  26. #116
    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Re: Re : Re: Re : The Dutch

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    I have heard the claim that there was little anti-Semitism in the Netherlands before. For example, five seconds ago from you yourself.
    ...
    They didn't have too. Nowhere in Europe did they need to. All they needed was to unleash the dark undercurrent of their occupied countries. In the Netherlands, this led to an orgy of anti-Semitic violence on a scale unparalled in Western Europe. In France, three quarters of Jewry was saved.
    I already admitted that anti-semitism (in the broad sense) did exist, but that it wasn't a result of a eugenic ideal. Even our nazi party (wich never was very popular and very rarely coopted into the occupation, but I digress) didn't preach racial/genetic purity until the occupation. Many Dutchmen collaborated with the holocaust out of indifference, and it's repugnant. But if the Netherlands had become a mostly independent satelite state like Vichy France instead of a directly controlled area it would very likely not have come to pass.

    Let me make be clear: the Germans did not at any time at gunpoint force barely asked the Dutch French to round up their Jews.
    Corrected

    Rather than congratulate yourself that 3/4 of French jews survived, maybe you ought to thank the Spanish for accepting tens of thousends of refugees crossing the pyrinees.

  27. #117
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : The Dutch

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    'Sermon diplomacy'', that is, lecturing others, is a well known characteristic of Dutch diplomacy. Apparantly, they can't stand a bit of criticism themselves.
    You think you are doing new but you are just repeating what is commonly accepted here. Minus sebrenica of course why apoligise for the UN screwing up, small-arms work well against machette-wielding mobs (in theory never been tried) but with tanks it's nice when you aren't denied air-support.

    Please feel free to shoot holes in anything I've written, I shall happily oblige and respond to any criticism.

    That would be taking on google
    Last edited by Fragony; 12-16-2008 at 13:07.

  28. #118
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : The Dutch

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Well welcome to the Big League, chaps. Where one's history is debated by both outsiders and by fierce internal debate.
    Quite. But where is the debate? What is your argument? You are not addressing your opponents, that's for sure.

    A monologue intérieur may be the Gallic idea of 'fierce debate', the rest of the world doesn't think so..
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  29. #119
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dutch

    Luigi does have one point, we do get away with it and we might get too used to it, I know too little to make a stand when it comes to the jews and the sebrenica massacre can ride my swinging , but what happened in Indonesia after WW2 must be the biggest blind spot in our, and others history. Credit where it's due and to be honest Luigi really hurt my feelings. I always try to be consequent as possible so me would be the gnat in the hailstorm for a while.

  30. #120
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dutch

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    [..] what happened in Indonesia after WW2 must be the biggest blind spot in our, and others history. Credit where it's due and to be honest Luigi really hurt my feelings.
    Well, he didn't hurt my feelings about 'our' colonial past.

    I think I must have posted in this forum about Dutch colonial exploits more than a dozen times over the past years. It feels really weird to be told now that I always got away scot-free with 'my' colonial horrors, that I tried to deny them at all costs, and that it's about time that they were discussed openly.

    Well, not weird, just a tad boring.

    By the way, Louis missed 17th and 18th Dutch slavery, the main source for the personal fortune of our House of Orange. Beatrix is a multi-billionaire thanks to a 'sound' investment policy that goes right back to the West Indies Company and its profits from slavery.

    Of course this is an episode that is taught extensively in Dutch schools, if only because it helps to understand why we have a multi-ethnic society these days. Oh wait, according to Louis we don' t. Or do we?
    Whatever.
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