The Absolutely Best Heavy Cavalry in EB...

[Yyrkoon]

All Steppe family members are absolute gods of the battlefield. I've beaten 12:1 odds with only a family member unit. Take out the light infantry or AP units with arrows and just charge the hell out of everything else. These guys are monsters. I'm starting to love the Saka as I have a massive army of three HAs and 2FMs to take towns that I then garrison with a unit of Suebi's. By the way, why are Suebi's better than Saka foot archers when they cost the same (+2 def I think).

[MerlinusCDXX]

All Steppe family members are absolute gods of the battlefield. I've beaten 12:1 odds with only a family member unit. Take out the light infantry or AP units with arrows and just charge the hell out of everything else. These guys are monsters. I'm starting to love the Saka as I have a massive army of three HAs and 2FMs to take towns that I then garrison with a unit of Suebi's. By the way, why are Suebi's better than Saka foot archers when they cost the same (+2 def I think).

Subeshi archers do have a higher defense than the Saka foot archers, but they lack the range of Saka foot archers (209) The Subeshi's range is in line with most of the other good steppe foot archers(198), such as Scythian, Mardian, Persian Heavy, and Sauromatae. So the Subeshi archers are just good steppe foot archers with a bit more durability in melee.

[phonicsmonkey]

These guys are monsters. I'm starting to love the Saka as I have a massive army of three HAs and 2FMs to take towns that I then garrison with a unit of Suebi's.

I lost all my troops in my early expansion as Saka, since then I've relied exclusively on my stack of six Saka FMs. That one stack has completely steamrolled Pahlava and is about to turn on Baktria. They are all at three gold chevrons experience and magically regenerate between battles. Joy!

[NeoSpartan]

hum..... sounds like world of B.S to me fellas.

"triple gold chevrons".... "armor and attack upgrade, tons of command traits and whatnot". BAH! Unless you are playing VH/VH, your just exploiting the dumb AI.

When I play anything bellow VH battle difficulty:

I don't use FM with gold chevrons, once they start getting silver chev I think its time to send the FM to chill in a nice and easy town and make babies with the local women.

As for regular units, I don't retrain anybody with silver chevrons, nor do I let them get gain more, I dilute them down by joining them and rejoining them with similar units.

[phonicsmonkey]

I don't use FM with gold chevrons, once they start getting silver chev I think its time to send the FM to chill in a nice and easy town and make babies with the local women.

As for regular units, I don't retrain anybody with silver chevrons, nor do I let them get gain more, I dilute them down by joining them and rejoining them with similar units.

I don't have any other troops to use, I blitzed like crazy, lost everything except my FMs.

Try stopping those Saka FMs from getting gold XP! They kill so many they get there in three or four battles..

Like you, I don't retrain my troops, I only merge them with fresh recruits.

[Cbvani]

I don't have any other troops to use, I blitzed like crazy, lost everything except my FMs.

Try stopping those Saka FMs from getting gold XP! They kill so many they get there in three or four battles..

Like you, I don't retrain my troops, I only merge them with fresh recruits.

Only thing I've ever found able to counter Kat-Archers (besides more Kat-Archers) is massive numbers. I mean MASSIVE. Huge, even.

Although I'm tempted to try a new strategy - Regular HA's with good, swift shock cavalry backup, with a 2-1 ratio in numbers. That is, 1 HA plus 1 Shock Cav for every 1 Kat-Archer. I figure the HA's could engage and confuse the Kat-Archer while the shock cav engages and withdraws, with HA's firing to cover their retreat. It would require a lot of microing, but I think it might be doable. If it is, it would be cheaper than a single Kat-Archer, too.

[Ibrahim]

@TPC: don't worry-all you need to do is just got to the sp, and mp file backup, take the EDU, and look up steppe_grivpanvar (or grivapanvar, 3rd entry), look up its sec_weapon_attr, change "no" to "ap" ==> voila!

[Tyrfingr]

Death in the shape of a panzer cataphract...

[NeoSpartan]

TPC why should they Parthian late FM have AP just because they have a long sword????

The Casse Kluddargos (Casse Sword Masters) and Kludda Lugiae (Lugian Swordsmen) have big two hand swords and they DON'T have AP. They do however have a really high lethality.

I think the issue here is game engine limits, I am sure the Parthian Katas carried additional side arms. (just like the Thureophoroi only have javenlings and spears, but they also carried swords)

As for the Greek Katas, they rollout with a falcata type sword, which is AP, but has a really low lethality.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Only thing I've ever found able to counter Kat-Archers (besides more Kat-Archers) is massive numbers. I mean MASSIVE. Huge, even.

Does anyone else have the feeling that Kat-Archers overemphasize the "Kat" a bit? I have made the experience that they generally don't waste much time shooting but charging head on instead alongside the "real" Cataphracts...

[lobf]

Why are FMs so disproportionately strong? I understand them being better than regular cavalry, but maybe some balancing needs to be done when they can get kill ratios like 70 or 100 or more to 1.

[Ibrahim]

Why are FMs so disproportionately strong? I understand them being better than regular cavalry, but maybe some balancing needs to be done when they can get kill ratios like 70 or 100 or more to 1.

IIRC, one parthian= 3 romans...at least so i was told.

logically, 50 grivapanvar can massacre 150 men with ease (i.e, without losing more than a man or two), so imagine a guard cataphract .bear in mind, the parthians evidently struggled versus eastern kingdoms, so logically they are also equivalent in strength.

does that explain it?

[Tellos Athenaios]

Why are FMs so disproportionately strong? I understand them being better than regular cavalry, but maybe some balancing needs to be done when they can get kill ratios like 70 or 100 or more to 1.

A very powerful tool in the hands of a crafty player? What chance does the poor AI stand?

Really, you can accomplish similar devastating effects with other units (non-fm) as well; only you don't get that massive bonus from having a highly trained, extra-hit-points, experienced general. Who happens to be nearly always in the front, and hence: where most of the action happens?

It's more like: there is a general ergo there is a very strong officer. The individual bodyguards go down about as easily as any other soldiers of their class/type, but the generals don't.

[The Persian Cataphract]

Why are FMs so disproportionately strong? I understand them being better than regular cavalry, but maybe some balancing needs to be done when they can get kill ratios like 70 or 100 or more to 1.

This is of course a very loaded question, so I will only answer what appears to be boldfaced in the quote.

We were planning a rather extensive stat-revamp which unfortunately was put on ice. It's a pity, because the concept in itself was absolutely fantastic, but due to circumstances that just simply were out of our hands, it just didn't materialize as intended.

Now, my own answer to the question is that, if there are any truly elite d'elite troops, a unit meant for the role of a spearhead, literally aching for that role in either leading a decisive charge to absolute glory or fight to the death to protect their masters, either by aiding him at the breach, or helping him escape from the fray if he is found in trouble... These guys are not just cream of the crop, they were made for this. A fine early example of this chivalric, selfless behaviour is found in Oxathres, the brother of Darius III Codomannus, who ushered his dying horse to block a lance-charge from Alexander III The Great, a motif which has been immortalized in the Alexander Mosaic. No guts, no glory.

To offset their martial ardour, high armour and proficiency and ownership of cutting edge contemporary weapon's technology, each high noble gets roughly around twenty of these guys, as opposed to recruits who are fixed to a given figure. So more than often, the size of this squadron is likely to be smaller than that of a recruited or levied contingent.

In other words, I don't think they are that over-powered at all. Of course, traits will also decide how strong such a unit truly is. A bodyguard contingent revolves entirely upon the existence of a master to bodyguard. Once family members proper kick the bucket, the retinue will disband. So really, if the family member dies on impact, the unit itself is forfeit.

[Arutima]

the nomad Fm are indeed beasts.

Also, don't forget pahlava's Fm , early and late version. And elite late cataphracts. Pictures related

[Maestro Ugo]

All Steppe family members are absolute gods of the battlefield. I've beaten 12:1 odds with only a family member unit. Take out the light infantry or AP units with arrows and just charge the hell out of everything else. These guys are monsters. I'm starting to love the Saka as I have a massive army of three HAs and 2FMs to take towns that I then garrison with a unit of Suebi's. By the way, why are Suebi's better than Saka foot archers when they cost the same (+2 def I think).

I had a similar game a while back with Saka, my army consisted mostly of FMs, and an odd horse archer or noble here and there. The problem is that after the "march of time" your FMs suddenly lose the ability to shoot missiles. That is very unfortunate indeed...