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  1. #1

    Default Linguistic Question About Getai

    Is it OK for the team to reveal where they took some of the Getai names from? I'm curious on some, mainly the name "mezenai" for horsemen. For what I know it doesn't seem to have a cognate in any other IE language, even though Dacian was supposed to be one.

    Example: we have Equus in latin (p turns into q as in *penk --->quinque), cognate with Hippos (Greek) and Epos (Gaulish), but I personally can't find a parallel between them and mezenai. That said the language isn't closely related, but the root for it must still have been different then. Even in English you have something like "Horse" which can be defined as a (quite remote) cognate with these. Do we actually know the Thraco-Getic word for "horse"?

    A minor but intriguing question nevertheless.
    Last edited by A Terribly Harmful Name; 11-29-2008 at 05:35.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Linguistic Question About Getai

    i have no idea what the basis in EB is, but I remember seeing that word concerning a Thracian inscription:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    Only four Thracian inscriptions have been found. One is a gold ring found in 1912 in the town of Ezerovo, Bulgaria. The ring was dated to the 5th century BC. On the ring is an inscription written in a Greek script which says:

    ΡΟΛΙΣΤΕΝΕΑΣΝ / ΕΡΕΝΕΑΤΙΛ / ΤΕΑΝΗΣΚΟΑ / ΡΑΖΕΑΔΟΜ / ΕΑΝΤΙΛΕΖΥ / ΠΤΑΜΙΗΕ / ΡΑΖ / ΗΛΤΑ
    rolisteneasn/ereneatil/teanēskoa/razeadom/eantilezu/ptamiēe/raz/ēlta

    The meaning of the inscription is not known, and it bears no resemblance to any known language. Thracologists such as Vladimir I. Georgiev and Dechev have proposed various translations for the inscription but these are just guesses.

    A second inscription was found in 1965 near the village of Kyolmen, Preslav district, dating to the 6th century BC. It consists of 56 letters of the Greek alphabet, probably a tomb stele inscription similar to the Phrygian ones:

    ΕΒΑΡ. ΖΕΣΑΣΝ ΗΝΕΤΕΣΑ ΙΓΕΚ.Α / ΝΒΛΑΒΑΗΕΓΝ / ΝΥΑΣΝΛΕΤΕΔΝΥΕΔΝΕΙΝΔΑΚΑΤΡ.Σ
    ebar. zesasn ēnetesa igek. a / nblabaēgn / nuasnletednuedneindakatr.s

    A third inscription is again on a ring, found in Duvanli, Plovdiv district, next to the left hand of a skeleton. It dates to the 5th century BC. The ring has the image of a horseman with the inscription surrounding the image. It is only partly legible (16 out of the initial 21)

    ΗΖΙΗ ..... ΔΕΛΕ / ΜΕΖΗΝΑΙ
    ēziē ..... dele / mezēnai

    ΜΕΖΗΝΑΙ likely corresponds to Menzana, the Messapian "horse deity" to which horses were sacrificed, compared also to Albanian mëz, mâz "poney" (borrowed into Romanian as mânz "colt"), derived either from PIE *mongw(i)- "virile" or PIE *mend(i)- "to suckle".
    I hate to use Wikipedia as an authority, because it IS NOT. Yet, I have not personally researched the basis for this... I do study Thracians and IE as a hobby though... no time to study this one for you, sorry

    [edit]

    oh yeah, this site isn't shabby:
    http://members.tripod.com/~Groznijat/thrac/thrac_6.html

    3. The inscription on the golden ring from Duvanli

    This ring was found next to the left hand of a skeleton in the Arabadzhjiska mould at the village of Duvanli, Plovdiv district. The ring has the image of a horseman and an inscription surrounding the image:



    The golden ring from Duvanli

    The inscription is only partially preserved – only 16 out of the initial 21 letters are readable:

    The text of the Duvanli inscription (on the golden ring)

    The interpretation of Vl. Georgiev is the following:

    Text: eys, ie … dele, mezenai.
    Translation: “(You) powerful, help … protect, (you) horseman!”

    The image of the horseman clarifies the word mezena as meaning ‘a horseman’. The Thracian mezena (mezenai in the text) is almost identical to the name (the epithet) of the Messapian deity of (Iuppiter) Menzana, the “horse deity” to which were sacrificed horses. It also corresponds to the Albanian mes, mezi (‘a stallion’) and the Romainan mnz (‘a stallion’). The latter is Dacian in origin from the IE *mend(i)- ‘a horse’. The Thracian mezena and the Messapian Menzana – from the IE *mendiana mean ‘a horseman’.
    Last edited by blitzkrieg80; 11-29-2008 at 05:51.
    HWÆT !
    “Vesall ertu þinnar skjaldborgar!” “Your shieldwall is pathetic!” -Bǫðvar Bjarki [Hrólfs Saga Kraka]
    “Wyrd oft nereð unfǽgne eorl þonne his ellen déah.” “The course of events often saves the un-fey warrior if his valour is good.” -Bēowulf
    “Gørið eigi hárit í blóði.” “Do not get blood on [my] hair.” -Sigurð Búason to his executioner [Óláfs Saga Tryggvasonar: Heimskringla]

    Wes þū hāl ! Be whole (with luck)!

  3. #3

    Default Re: Linguistic Question About Getai

    Very interesting! For what I know it seems Dacian was an IE Satem language. I found a list of cognates here in Wikipedia and it appears "mezenai" is not related to any other IE word known... maybe a loan from pre-IE extinct substrata? Still, though, the wikipedia link fails to attest any particular meaning to the word.

    I'm starting to think that attributing the word for "horsemen" was a bit hasty... Based on our knowledge and the intriguing lack of cognates (IIRC) it could be simply a guess based on the figure, but then it might be as well that the "true" word was lost as much as it is really "mezenai". Anyway I will not further touch the issue since I'm not specialized in the Ancient Getics to step the ground confidently. Thanks!

    Edit -Yeah, wikipedia is rather a bad source but better than none anyways.
    Last edited by A Terribly Harmful Name; 11-29-2008 at 05:50.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Linguistic Question About Getai

    Just saw your second source, it appears "mezenai" has a solid source and a PIE root that can be identified. Well it solved the mystery for me ;).

    If you could recommend any books on the Thracians, I would be thankful. I'm seeking a field to delve deeply since I'm not really into Ancient History and they appear interesting enough for a start.
    Last edited by A Terribly Harmful Name; 11-29-2008 at 05:54.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Linguistic Question About Getai

    Quote Originally Posted by Basileos ton Ellenon
    maybe a loan from pre-IE extinct substrata
    very possible - interesting line of thought...


    maybe not immediately obvious is the basis for their assumption which is that the expected outcome of palatalization (Satem):

    *mend > *menz

    [the only reason I think of it immediately (strange thought) is because i had to research it to reconstruct Pre-Balto-Slavic ]

    possibly *man+d (derivational suffix; also can be past participle)
    http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/res...77&root=config

    FYI - the various *m(A)nd are stemming from IE ablaut gradation, which you might already know

    http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/res...32&root=config

    http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/res...34&root=config > http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/res...19&root=config
    <=> http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/l...yMaster-X.html


    [edit] sorry i didn't see your other post, but i still wanted to share (i guess i made time, hehe)
    Last edited by blitzkrieg80; 11-29-2008 at 06:37.
    HWÆT !
    “Vesall ertu þinnar skjaldborgar!” “Your shieldwall is pathetic!” -Bǫðvar Bjarki [Hrólfs Saga Kraka]
    “Wyrd oft nereð unfǽgne eorl þonne his ellen déah.” “The course of events often saves the un-fey warrior if his valour is good.” -Bēowulf
    “Gørið eigi hárit í blóði.” “Do not get blood on [my] hair.” -Sigurð Búason to his executioner [Óláfs Saga Tryggvasonar: Heimskringla]

    Wes þū hāl ! Be whole (with luck)!

  6. #6

    Default Re: Linguistic Question About Getai

    [maybe not immediately obvious is the basis for their assumption which is that the expected outcome of palatalization (Satem): *mend > menz [the only reason I think of it is because i had to research it to reconstruct Pre-Balto-Slavic ]
    Ah, yes, that was a good one. Balto-Slavic was still a cohese group, if we are talking about so long in the past. The wonders of language reconstruction! Just today I was reading about the Schützen-Shooter-Scythian-Saka parallel ;).

    Anyhow, that remembers me about another minor detail about the town of Gelonus. It should have wooden walls from the start, IIRC, based on a passage from Herodotus and (maybe) some archaeological excavations, that's it. Though the ethnicity of the inhabitants is disputed, I think they were some sort of proto-Balto-Slavic.

    EDIT - Found a source ;):

    http://www.customessaymeister.com/cu...ology/8139.htm

    ween nomads and Scythian pastoralist communities. He describes a people he calls the Geloni who were descendants of Greek colonists and native who lived around the city. He also describes the city, Gelonus which they built of wood. Some ate what they grew and other produced for the Greek wheat market. Archaeology in recent yeas has uncovered networks of town sites along the middle Dnepr River. These sites include settlements enclosed and fortified with outside cemeteries and industrial works such as granaries, potteries, and smithies for ironworks. The site of Belsk has ramparts which are 21 miles in circumference and is quite possibly the Gelonus of Herodotus. At the site there was a workshop making the type of human skull drinking cups which Herodotus details. (Ascherson 77)
    The web isn't the best place but it seems the archaelogical site properly found vestiges of fortifications. I will try doing something less shallow later, maybe.
    Last edited by A Terribly Harmful Name; 11-29-2008 at 06:36.

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