hoplita haploi?, this is sparta!

[theoldbelgian]

the question is rather simple:
why can't I recruit the Greek levy hoplites in Sparta?
I need them to cripple the makedons in the beginning

[Maion Maroneios]

I've been wondering this as well to be honest. It seems reasonable enough to me to be able to recruit them, representing Helot levies for example.

Maion

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

I don't think the Spartans would ever try to arm their helots unless the situation would be desperate enough to warrant it. The chance that they could turn against their masters was the biggest risk.

[Maion Maroneios]

True, but even so they used them exessively. Especially during the Hellenistic era, where the numbers of the Homioi had been reduced significantly.

Maion

[theoldbelgian]

and maybe the fact that several makedonian armies where lurking nearby and besieging your ally Athens would be persuasion enough to levy them

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

I thought the helots made up ranks of units such as skirmishers, slingers, and peltasts. Did the Spartans ever equip the helots as hoplites?

[Megalos Danielos Psychopatos]

They didn't. But they used them as a light missile infantry and porters;fighting at Platei They had 5000 homoioi, 5000 hoplites perioioi and about 35 000 helots for example. When Sparta started falling, They started to give full laws to some part of helots, but even then they probably didn't fight as hoplites...

Soorry for my poor english.

[Maion Maroneios]

They didn't. But they used them as a light missile infantry and porters;fighting at Platei They had 5000 homoioi, 5000 hoplites perioioi and about 35 000 helots for example. When Sparta started falling, They started to give full laws to some part of helots, but even then they probably didn't fight as hoplites...

Soorry for my poor english.

They did. See this:
http://books.google.gr/books?id=htg5...um=6&ct=result

As what you said about the Homioi and Perikoikoi, it's true. As true as what you said about the Heilotes, with the only wrong part being what you mentioned as last. They did fight as hoplites, that's a fact.

Maion

[desert]

Then again, Sparta isn't the ONLY city in that whole area. So why shouldn't those other cities, once assimilated into the subjunctive, be able to recruit levy hoplites?

[Maion Maroneios]

Then again, Sparta isn't the ONLY city in that whole area. So why shouldn't those other cities, once assimilated into the subjunctive, be able to recruit levy hoplites?

Another good point, even though poleis that where under Spartan rule where not permitted to have their own standing military, for obvious reasons.

Maion

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Weel, the Helots are all gone by this point.

On the other hand, the Spartans are very much impoverished and there a citizens who can't afford full panoply, or their mess bills.

[antisocialmunky]

Weel, the Helots are all gone by this point.

On the other hand, the Spartans are very much impoverished and there a citizens who can't afford full panoply, or their mess bills.

Yes, the Corinthian War saw SPARTA!!!! losing its Helot privileges. By the time you can actually afford to make a spam army(just south of Pella), you're going to having to march too far north for Sparta to work logistically. Or dead.

Don't forget that Mercs 'R Us is just south.

[Maion Maroneios]

Ah, I had completely forgotten about the Corinthian Wars That's very true, but then again I don't see a strong reason why not to be able to recruit them anyway.

Maion

[NeoSpartan]

Ah, I had completely forgotten about the Corinthian Wars That's very true, but then again I don't see a strong reason why not to be able to recruit them anyway.

Maion

me neither

[Celtic_Punk]

Helots accompanied the Spartans to war. each Spartan had his own helot. they'd sharpen their weapons and fix armour, other menial tasks. IF the shit hit the fan, the helots would double as levies.


This I dont know though. Would Sparta use them as skirmishers? it seems sort of irrational to have such a large source of manpower and not use them as such. I can totally understand not letting them serve in the phalanx but as a screening force their usefulness is quite visible, even to the narrow-minded Spartans. (ancient spartans, that is, No offence to current Spartans, whom I found incredibly nice and hospitable, when I was there this past summer, even to a barbarian like myself)

[Maion Maroneios]

Oviously you didn't see the aboe posts, Celtic Punk. After the Corinthian War, Sparta lost all privilages over helots at that point. What you said though, is true but for the past.

Now I believe they should be available, representing helots that have come again under Spartan rule or something. Who tells me Sparta can't recover, even if that would be very unlikely?

Maion

[Celtic_Punk]

eh, which is exactly why I mention them as skirmishers in my AAR.

[Codyos Vladimiros]

Don't forget that Mercs 'R Us is just south.

That's one thing to call Cape Tarantion.... A good name indeed. Well played.

In a lot of my campaigns when I'm bouncing around Hellas, I tend to rely heavily on that spot. You can park a general there, and within a turn (assuming finances), you have a ready army to wreak havok with!

[Elthore]

In EB, sparta is representing the peloponesse. There were other towns with hoplites in the region like argos and pylos, so if we are to assume they are allied with sparta, they should be able to offer hoplites.


EDIT: my memory fails me, sorry for the mistake

[/Bean\]

You could just mod them in to be recruitable yourself if you think they should be. There plenty of guides on how to do that in these forums.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Argos and Pylos are both in the Korinthos province.

[Maion Maroneios]

In EB, sparta is representing the peloponesse.

You're far from correct mate, as it seems you haven't played as a Greek faction. The Peloponnesos is subdivided into two regions, Achaia (with Korinthos as it's capital) and Lakonike (with Sparte as it's capital). Lakonike was a region that belonged to Sparte, which means they upheld Spartan laws that prevented any other poleis to raise independent armies. Now Argos'and Pylos are located in the Achaia region, not Lakonike.

Maion

[theoldbelgian]

That's one thing to call Cape Tarantion.... A good name indeed. Well played.

In a lot of my campaigns when I'm bouncing around Hellas, I tend to rely heavily on that spot. You can park a general there, and within a turn (assuming finances), you have a ready army to wreak havok with!

yeah thats something that I find very strange, why are there 3 pieces of land there, which belongs to regions that aren't close?

[Maion Maroneios]

Obviously to have the possibility of enabling one to hire such a great pool of mercenaries, as the latter are restricted to regions. Having 3 regions in cape Tainaron enables the possibility of a great deal of mercenaries to be hired, me thinks.

Maion

[Aemilius Paulus]

Obviously to have the possibility of enabling one to hire such a great pool of mercenaries, as the latter are restricted to regions. Having 3 regions in cape Tainaron enables the possibility of a great deal of mercenaries to be hired, me thinks.

Maion

That's true, but why did the EB team do that? To represent the fact that a general was able to hire those types of mercs even in while in Ελλάς? rtw.exe has limitations, so is that why the EB team made that cape the way it is? Or was it a mistake, which seems rather unlikely. Funny, but this thread has given me an insight. I have never thought that I could use that specific cape to hire varied mercenaries. I am dumb . oh well, in my current Romani campaign, a huge Eleutheroi army spawned right on the very cape, full of various Eastern, Hellenistic and even Iberian units. I do not really feel like sending my men in such a potentially bloody battle, so I just left the rebels there.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

That cape was a historic site mercenaries gathered to be hired for various conflicts in Hellas. The site was made on purpose and don't take anything away from the game in any way other than looking odd.

[Megas Methuselah]

oh well, in my current Romani campaign, a huge Eleutheroi army spawned right on the very cape, full of various Eastern, Hellenistic and even Iberian units. I do not really feel like sending my men in such a potentially bloody battle, so I just left the rebels there.

Heh heh. You should've paid the Mercs their money, it's not nice just leaving them alone. Now look at 'em!

[theoldbelgian]

one more question what desides which regions it will be
ive seen combinations of southern italy, and 2 regions of syria I thought
while right now I have krete among them

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

They are just from different mercenary pools that contain a variety of mercenary types that would have gathered at the cape. Which provinces are included chaged a while back when mercenary pools changed, as two provinces that used to be included started to share the same pool.