Nomad questions

[Cyrus]

I was wondering what is the differnce between horse archers and raiders? i noticed for ex. that the latter cost a little more but do 1 more in arrow damage, while having a -3 in melee, so wich would be the best? also how can it be that 3 units of saka horse archers and a general managed to outshoot 4 units of thanvare payadang? they were all standing perfectli still and neither had any armour upgrades, more or less the same exp. and the gen only had 40 men? oh and they all had full quivers.

[Tristuskhan]

Raiders have a much better charge (27 usually) and a much greater upkeep. Horse-archers are to be the bulk of your force in the early game, raiders beeng a nice addition to your bodyguards as shock cavalry.

Later, when you are rich, if you can afford them, nobles could replace both raiders and horse-archers. But even then, you'll probably keep on using your gold-chevroned old army, for sentimental reasons and because horse-archers and raiders once veterans can cripple even the best armies the foe can field.

[Mediolanicus]

Archers : bow + short sword = cheap + hold out marginally longer in a melee due to their swords

Riders : bow + spear = better charge

[gamegeek2]

Isn't it Riders, not raiders?

[Tristuskhan]

It is indeed

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

I generally switch to the Aorsi boys when I'm Sauromatae, they are just slightly more expensive than the Sauroamatae line HA's but have a far better charge and more defense against incoming arrows, as lousy as it still is.

After I've built two to three mines and conquered a reasonable amount of territories I add riders to my seasoned armies to get more shock power. They are far more effective against massed infantry and heavy cavalry than against nomad units, when noble HA's should be used.

[gamegeek2]

The problem is, Sauromatae are at a definite disadvantage against the overly-aggressive (against its steppe allies) Pahlava, who has 6 DAHAE NOBLES in Mazsakata in my current Sauro campaign. I do have two mines though. I'll have to FD peace with them, we need an FD fix for 1.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Wear them down, rinse and repeat. True steppe style.

By then you should have at least a silver chevroned FM. Shoot at their backs with cheap HA's then get your FM to massacre them together with the HA's charging at their backs.

Make sure your armoured fellows shoot at the enemy archers and have your FM's soak up the damage, they will recover eventually and won't suffer many casualties because of their armor.

[Cyrus]

Thanks but i'm already familiar with the steppe tactics (best victory: 1 ha's and 1 fm against 700 infantry 250 cav. on med. hard) but the reason i posted was to know the differnces between ha's and raiders or riders, not really shure, anyway wich is better as far as arrow range is concerned and also what about armoured ha's wich i still don't have are they worth the expense or should i just keep hiring riders\ha's?

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Riders are the shock section of your steppe army. Apart from their lances and their armour, they are not distinct from your Horse Archers, being able to shoot and skirmish like them. To make up for these advantages, they are expensive.

Which means that they will always fill a niche role in your army, composed by a bulk of steppe horse archers. As I said, they might be necessary once facing massed formations of heavy cavalry and infantry, where their shock power can be a deciding factor. Other than that, you should stick with noble or line HA's.

[artavazd]

I love the steppe riders. With just 5 of these guys, I can decimate any army. Their shock value is the key to victory with these guys.

[Cyrus]

Well ok but it seemed like they had a little more range than normal ha's, but i'm talking about 20m so it's realy not that important.anyway they to require quite a bit of micromanaging due to their armour "lack" if i use'em as shok cavalry. (just to make shure i know shock cavalry is cavalry u use just for charges right?)
And would anyone give me a desription of pahlava armoured cavalry eg armoured ha's and kata's? please
oh and thx all for the reply's they're always very helpful

[Tristuskhan]

Armoured horse-archers are true kings of the battlefield, butchers, for the ennemies and for your coffers. Pathian cats and noble cats I never used much (but I face many of them in my current Getai campaign, hard nuts to crack, inflicting tremendous losses charging even veteran heavy infantery I field).

Grivpanvars are bulldozers, very sexy but cost a tremendous lot.

[Cyrus]

Well after 5 days or so of tests over tests i am now with pahlava again and have new and improved questiones!!!!!!!!!!!!
Starting with the reformed government, i read i guide in the AAR section of the forum on this subject but it only had one post and no replys so it really wasn't that clear, how do i get it?
When fighting in woods i'm havig huge problems micro managing my horse-archers due to 1 sucky visibility,2 units can't charge properly or at least no effectively and 3 it seems archers in general have a hard time aiming (or is it just bad luck?)
What strategys do vets use in woods?
How do i know if a region has hidden resources in it? meanig that weird government thing?
that's all for now folks!

[Cbvani]

Well after 5 days or so of tests over tests i am now with pahlava again and have new and improved questiones!!!!!!!!!!!!
Starting with the reformed government, i read i guide in the AAR section of the forum on this subject but it only had one post and no replys so it really wasn't that clear, how do i get it?
When fighting in woods i'm havig huge problems micro managing my horse-archers due to 1 sucky visibility,2 units can't charge properly or at least no effectively and 3 it seems archers in general have a hard time aiming (or is it just bad luck?)
What strategys do vets use in woods?
How do i know if a region has hidden resources in it? meanig that weird government thing?
that's all for now folks!

Guide to fighting in woods: Don't. Dense forests are not where you want to be fighting. You want plains and steppes, or an enemy city. The point of a cavalry nomad army is that you get to choose where you want to fight - send an expedition deep into enemy territory, kill a few single-unit stacks or something, distract them, bleed them, and then when they least expect it show up with a large cavalry army out of nowhere right outside one of their cities.

Funnily enough, you want to fight the same place a successor army wants to fight: a flat plain. And speaking as a fellow Pahlava player who just massacred a steppe army on a flat plain, I can confidently say that you have the better army for it.

[Cyrus]

Yeah i know..... problem being that AS beseiged the town north of hekatompylos, the one south of the sea and i had a ha army going south to take susa so i turned around and attacked them but the map is an incredibly,remarcably dense forest wich i thought did not exist in the area due to heavy salt levels in the sea.... or something like that. So i cant avoid the battle ,any suggestions?

[johnhughthom]

I started the Pahlav reform guide but a CTD in my AAR meant I was unable to continue it as i wanted to use screenshots, I will complete it eventually. Here is a list of what to build to get the reformed govt.
1-Military Occupation
2-Migration
3-Pastoralism
4-Large Nomad Market
5-Settled Community
6-Warlord's Horse Herds
7-Reformed Pastoralism
8-Advanced Settlement
9-Settled Aristocracy
10- Reformed Parthian Government

[Cyrus]

In that order? and what will the reform give me?
Also sorry for this off topic question. what does it mean when in the faq on the reforms for the celts it sais collectively? does it mean avery celt faction has to build lv3 markets to get the first reform or what?

[Tristuskhan]

Well after 5 days or so of tests over tests i am now with pahlava again and have new and improved questiones!!!!!!!!!!!!
Starting with the reformed government, i read i guide in the AAR section of the forum on this subject but it only had one post and no replys so it really wasn't that clear, how do i get it?

Here: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=97902

When fighting in woods i'm havig huge problems micro managing my horse-archers due to 1 sucky visibility,2 units can't charge properly or at least no effectively and 3 it seems archers in general have a hard time aiming (or is it just bad luck?)
What strategys do vets use in woods?

Don't fight in woods, for Ahura Mazda's Sake!Be agressive, chose your battlefields. Bypass Assak (is it Asaak?) and head for Hecatompylos , there are good battlefields for horse archers there and once you bled the AS a few dozen times Assak will lean undefended and ready to fall in the hands of a second-line army.
Edit: it must be Zadrakata, so head for Apameia

Reforms will give you a much better economy along with a few but precious units, like Grivpanvar and Hoplitaï.

[Cyrus]

ok but as i already posted i can't avoid it.....
thx for the rest though

[Tristuskhan]

If you can't avoid it, prepair for a Pyrrhic victory, in the best case. Next season you won't have to pay the upkeep of many of your veterans. It's good for your financial balance, though.
And if you are as lame as I am in the woods (that's a pity for a forest manager, uh....forests are made to hunt or work, not to make war), you'll probably never forget one of the first lessons for a nomad fighting helenes must learn: DON'T fight in the woods.

And something that can be helpful in the case you want to become a footman: mercenary hellenic medium phalanxes are your friends, and Hyrcanian hillmen too. But they are odd friends, since they fight walking, a barbaric fashion.

[Cyrus]

Uuuuuh ok but should i use more ha's or foot archers? and what abot fm's? also it's against 3 phalanxes so well it's gonna be hard......
plus i made a bunch of other questions no one as answerd yet i'd for example like an answer on the question abou celts please......

[Tristuskhan]

Only infantry matters when you are stuck in the forest. Use you FM cautiously for charges on pinned ennemies, keep your light horse archers out of the fray, look at your missile troops spending their stones/arrows for nothing and pray.

PS: there is a marvellous temperate rain forest in northern Iran, next to the shores of the Caspian. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungles_of_Iran , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian..._mixed_forests

[johnhughthom]

http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img....png&srv=img34

Map of areas you can get Parthian Reformed Govt. And yes, you need to follow the order I posted above.

[Cyrus]

Ok I have one more question, is there a reason that warlord's elite herds never allow any unit recrutment? Is it they start only after you build the reformed government?

[MerlinusCDXX]

Elite Herds is just the precursor building to Warlords Horse Herds and offers no recruitment, recruitment from the Warlord's Herds building is dependent on AOR of steppe units (and, of course, faction). I forget what units the Pahlava get out of them (some kind of noble cavalry I believe, plus regular horsearchers with pastoralism- Pahlava is the only faction that can get regular, non-noble horsearchers with pastoralism). The building line is upgradable all the way to High King's Herds, which is where Parthian Cataphracts are recruited from, I forget what the levels in between are called. When upgrading a settlement to get the reformed government, building the Settled Aristocracy upgrade disables recruitment for the herds line. Recruitment with the Reformed Government depends on regular MICs like most factions get. Those MICs are what get you the ParthoHellenikoi Thureophoroi (your first crack at decent infantry), Kardaka Arteshtar (Persian Hoplites) , and the highly feared Grivpanzers (Grivpanvar- late Cataphracts), plus you can get most of the old (pastoralism) steppe and regular Eastern units depending on AOR.

[Cyrus]

And are the elite herds necessary for the reformed government?

[johnhughthom]

Elite Herds is just the precursor building to Warlords Horse Herds

So without them you can't get Warlords Horse Herds, which is a requirement for the reform.

[Cyrus]

Ok i'm practically done with the pahlava campaign so i decided to give a go at the "dreaded" saka, and i must say it's slightly more difficult that the pahlava one, so on with the questions!!!!!!!!!! Yaaaaay
1) I took chach and led the army led by the FL towards the settlement to the west but when the rebels attack me i'm not on the hill, i'm on th base of it and my ha's get slaughtered by the ai's. i'd appreciate some help.
2) how different are thir gov.'s from the pahlava ones?
3)what is the deal with FM's they are real monsters!?!?!?!?! How can 1 unit of boodyguards slaughter 3 ha's and 1 foot archer with 20 casualties?
4)reading aar's ,general questions here and about and from personal experience i know the AI is retarded....i mean he has the brain of a banana.....why is it? is it possible to improve it by giving him simple battle schemes? how does the AI work?
I thank every one in advance for replys and the previous ones.

[Marcus Ulpius]

I can't help you with Saka, but to your question about AI. It hardly can be called artificial "intelligence". It is very straightforward, simplistic and non-flexible. Put it in any non-standard situation and it won't have a clue, so potentially hard battle can be turned into one sided massacre.

Like lately I was able to catch KH army on march to some 3 levy units on the hill. I hit the main bulk of their marching army with line of phalanxes and AI, despite having 4 general units was slaughtered, while losing a faction leader and 2 generals. It probably couldn't win in any case, but it could be an interesting battle where I could take some losses, instead I lost 100 men and killed around 800. Of those 100 lost the most were peltastai.

From what I know battle AI is hardcoded and can't be changed, although in M2TW they say it can be modified.