Odd question on Celtic battle preparation

[Recoil]

Before I ask my initial question, I feel I should give this a bit of background.

The other day my friend and I were talking about Alexander, as he had been reading up on them. He was amazed at his victories over the Persians and joked that "Alexander was so much more hardcore than those gay Spartans" (obvious reference to everyone's hype about 300) to which I replied that Alexander himself was gay. When I told him this he was incredibly surprised, and when I went on to explain that many Greek city states encouraged men to be in same sex relationships for a while he seemed adamant that I was wrong, and so I've collected some information from the internet that I'm going to give to him, should shut him up there

Anyways, I went on to explain to him that you can't apply modern morals to the past, especially a time so long ago as two thousand years! As an example, I told him something I had heard on the TV (this being the weird bit) in that British Celtic tribal warriors would masturbate as part of a preparation for a battle as they felt it gave them strength. Now I know I'm not making this up, even if it seems incredibly odd to some of you, and since it was on the BBC, a well respected channel, I take it as truth. The only thing is I'm having a bit of trouble finding evidence for this, and, after a few painful google searches, I've decided not to go running around on the internet to find an article on it.

So I'm asking to all the Celtic buffs, particularly the ones who know a lot about the British Tribes, is this true? I realise it seems like a bit of an obscene question, but I just wanted people who have actually researched a lot about the Celts to give me some insight. If not, looks like the BBC cons people! Cheers

[Cute Wolf]

I think not... I didn't have any valid historical facts about that, but I only use my simple logic (and experience...)

Mastur****** causes you to tire a bit, it consumes your energy.... and what I can say about doing that before a battle is suicide.... You'll be killed because you can't forget the video mental image (thinking about some girls... unless you're gay) instantly, and it does affect the way you think about your environment (you are not as aware and ready as before mastur******) and any gaestae who's foolish enough to mastur**** in front of disciplined roman legionaries will just end up impaled with a pila on his di**

Sorry, you post first... don't get the dirty minds... self shaking is bad things..... and in ancient days, I'll sure they prefer to fought with all their strength, so they can get the hot girls (as their loot) with all their di**'s strength....

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Your own argument is based in modern morals. Alexander wasn't "gay" because they did not divide people into groups of "gay" and "straight" back in those days.

I typed up a bunch of stuff on both your topics, but decided to delete them. This thread is both too crude and too much at risk of turning into a debate about modern issues. This thread will probably be locked/deleted.

[Maion Maroneios]

The other day my friend and I were talking about Alexander, as he had been reading up on them. He was amazed at his victories over the Persians and joked that "Alexander was so much more hardcore than those gay Spartans" (obvious reference to everyone's hype about 300) to which I replied that Alexander himself was gay. When I told him this he was incredibly surprised, and when I went on to explain that many Greek city states encouraged men to be in same sex relationships for a while he seemed adamant that I was wrong, and so I've collected some information from the internet that I'm going to give to him, should shut him up there

You friend was more correct than you, in quite a few ways, so you won't 'shut him up'. First of all, Alexander was indeed more 'hardcore' than the Spartans. The latter never massacred their enemies, nor burned, pillaged or razed cities to the ground. Alexander, on the contrary, did all those things. Plus he almost exterminated whole tribes of people (like the Kambojas near India) who got in his ways of conquest. Frankly, he was quite good and effective with it as well.

Secondly, Alexander wasn't 'gay', at least not as modern people consieve the image of a homosexual person. In ancient Greece, homosexuality wasn't encouraged between males for no while. In some (not all) states (not kingdoms), it was practiced between mature and young (unbearded) males. This is because there was a general idea that prevailed in Greek antiquity, that young males had to be taught by elder males with whom they came in closer contact (meaning physical). Also, this act was meant to prepare younger males for the future, as the older ones gave them presents and things like that. Not also that, in every vase painting we have found depicting the 'erastes' (loved one) and 'eromenos' (lover), the 'eromenos' never seems to enjoy the act. Now Macedonia, was a Greek Kingom, not a city-state. People weren't as 'free' as in a free state like Athens, where homosexuality was prevalent.

Now another thing I have to tell you about homosexuality, is that it wasn't encouraged in any way. That is, nowhere, not even Athens with her open mindedness and freedom. There are various occasions where people have insulted another using the word 'euryproktos', meaning 'one with a wide anus'. Even the great Athenian comedian, Aristophanes, makes use of the word to make fun of the 'eromenoi', or young males who had a sexual relationship with older males. It also seems that, after finding various sources, that just about any male that had the 'passive' role was made fun of. The one with the 'active' role, was the masculine figure, the alpha male, the penentrator and was never made fun of. Even Zeus, the one god considered the most masculine of them all due to his uncountable sexual encounters, had been with young and beautiful males. He always had the 'active' role, thus he was praised.

Note that I have nothing against gay people (I have even had a gay friend who did nothing strange) whatsoever, I'm just tired of people saying things like: Hey guys, you know the ancient Greeks where gay people? Even the Spartans where gay, ha ha how funny. The Sacred Band was as well! About that latter, can you imagine 300 individuals from the infamous Dutch 'gay-parade' forming up a unit and going to fight an enemy? Not all too formidable, wouldn't you think? Unless of course they would use their backsides at the enemy, but I think the sheer laughter they would cause to the enemy would be enough anyway. Just because the Romans where not accustomed to homosexuality as much as the Greeks (thus calling them fops and catamites), doesn't mean they where right. Homosexuality was existent in every nation through all history and will always exist. There was no nation/kingdom/state/anything in the world that had no cases of homosexuality at all, even if the laws against them where severe.

Just for the fun of it, I'll tell you something about Celts. There are written sources at the time of the great Celtic invasion of Greece, that tell us how strange the Greeks found the fact that mature male Celts slept with each other. Now does that sound as the opinion a man from Greece (or gay paradise as many would like to falsely believe), who was so accustomed to homosexuality? I don't think so.

Better do some research of your own before saying stuff like that, that goes for just about anyone. If you want proof of what I'm saying, pm me and I will give you links to sources that prove everything that I say. Excuse my boredom for not posting them now, but be sure that I will once I've been challenged.

MarcusAureliusAntonius: I know this thread might be locked for me posting this, but I sincerely believe ideas like this should stop. This is the 21st century and people still have stereotypes, as well as refuse to read history.

Maion

[Cute Wolf]

Just for the fun of it, I'll tell you something about Celts. There are written sources at the time of the great Celtic invasion of Greece, that tell us how strange the Greeks found the fact that mature male Celts slept with each other. Now does that sound as the opinion a man from Greece (or gay paradise as many would like to falsely believe), who was so accustomed to homosexuality? I don't think so.

@ Maron
Did they do it before the battle? It will exhaust them physically... (just try to talk in medical perspective)

[Maion Maroneios]

Ha ha, very funny. Here: Athenaeus in his Deipnosophists, 13.603, claims that "the Celts, in spite of the fact that their women are the most beautiful of all the barbarian tribes, prefer boys as sexual partners. There are some of them who will regularly go to bed – on those animal skins of theirs – with a pair of lovers", implying a woman and a boy. I will look for the other one saying they slept together during the invasions.

And it's Maion by the way.

Maion

[Cyrus]

You are so correct maion, i too am tired of the tipical stereotype modern people have of anchent greeks and macedonians, i have tried again and again at my school to explin that just because in the movie alexandros he is depicted as utterly gay and efestion as incredibly effeminate doesn't make it true. i've read 3 different modern biografies of alexander, and an anchent one and in neither is it even mentioned that he might have been gay. i just have on example to contradict yor affermation that in no way were gay relations encouraged, that is not entirely true, in fact if u read on the battle of cheronea ( I'm not shure the name is right, anyway it's the battle philippus won against the forces of athens and thebes combined in wich Alex. was the cavalry commander) where the theban elite unit is described, now i'm not entirely shure of their name but it might have been sacred band or something, they were a small yet elite gruop of soldiers who were all lovers, they were of course destroyed by the hammer and anvil and probably never returned to any battlefield as a unit but still they existed.
Also i have read in many places that people think the ptolemies hade in-the-family marriges, often brother and sister, because it was a custom of the anchent egyptian native pharo's (i'm not entirely shure how to spell that) wich is an absolute lie, it never was common for them! it only happened a few times and was always widely protested by the nobles (not for the disgust but because if the pharoh married his sister he would't marrie his daughter).

[We shall fwee...Wodewick]

On the note of cranking one out before battle:

yes you use energy, but the endorphins released make you happier and IIRC make you more relaxed.

(and now some silliness)

mind you, if you like it rough, you might get angry which could help you.

[Cute Wolf]

any gaestae who's foolish enough to mastur**** in front of disciplined roman legionaries will just end up impaled with a pila on his di**

On the note of cranking one out before battle:

yes you use energy, but the endorphins released make you happier and IIRC make you more relaxed.

(and now some silliness)

mind you, if you like it rough, you might get angry which could help you.

with a smile?!?!?!? Happier?!?!?!?!? Can you tought about that before you kill a lot of men or get killed?!?!?!


Oh I remember now that the Gaesatae and Uidisios should be PSYCHO.......


But it was tiresome business... do it before you want to sleep... not before a tough fight...

[Elmetiacos]

Ha ha, very funny. Here: Athenaeus in his Deipnosophists, 13.603, claims that "the Celts, in spite of the fact that their women are the most beautiful of all the barbarian tribes, prefer boys as sexual partners. There are some of them who will regularly go to bed – on those animal skins of theirs – with a pair of lovers", implying a woman and a boy.

Ugg! Um barbarian sleep on um skin! I don't think this Egyptian was very well travelled in the Celtic lands, somehow.

[Cyrus]

On the note of cranking one out before battle:

yes you use energy, but the endorphins released make you happier and IIRC make you more relaxed.

(and now some silliness)

mind you, if you like it rough, you might get angry which could help you.

Man i feel kinda dumb asking this but what does IIRC mean?
And for the record, what does AFAIK mean?

[Ibrahim]

Man i feel kinda dumb asking this but what does IIRC mean?
And for the record, what does AFAIK mean?

AFAIK=as far as i know.

IIRC=If I recall correctly.

moderator: this needs locking , before It goes out of hand.

[Mediolanicus]

This is rather similar to the "sex before sports-question".

In football (and I do mean the real football, not the kind where foot and ball only occasionaly touch) it is stereotype to say "no sex before a game". There are however some experiments where the result were the opposite. Some played better after sex.

Anyway... even very rough sex burns only around 5 calories a minute, so their stamina won't suffer...

[Megas Methuselah]

[Cute Wolf]

Well... forgive us..... and now you can

because we talk to much about it like

Sorry...

[Intranetusa]

I predict this topic will be closed by a mod soon because it's going way off topic...

[Recoil]

wow lads, i didnt realise id get flamed this much for asking a question. granted, i may have asked it naively but im only 16, im sorry if its not the usual kind of question/ delivery you're used to, i just honestly wanted to know. why youve all overreacted is beyond me though, as (as far as I can tell) i haven't insulted anyone and simply wanted to check over a fact with you.

when i said that i explained to him the greeks were gay, its simply because it makes it easier for me to get the point across to him than going into detail about it all (while not saying my friend is stupid, hes the kinda guy who only has a fleeting interest in ancient history, ie, from games, and thats why i didnt take him into too much detail) i already knew that stuff myself, especially that the greeks considered actual sex between men repulsive, and later explained to him how things were when he brought it up when we were just talking. its just that i didnt feel like going into it at the time, not that i am ignorant and apply modern morals to ancient practices, so please, dont assume that that's what i do, maion, as that's the message your post seemed to be implying.

if the mods feel this thread should be locked then i understand, but ill just say that all i wanted was a simple answer to a question, not what everyone has come out saying.

[gamegeek2]

No, we don't mind at all Recoil. It's just that this is getting off topic.

Frankly, Ancient Greeks and Romans would probably be insulted that we divide lovers into "gay" and "straight." Their mindset was very different from ours.

Frankly, I'm all for gay rights. I don't understand this crap that the government makes ("Defense of Marriage Act" - big misnomer, actually prevents federal recognition of gay marriage. wtf why do you care if someone is gay, people?)

[desert]

Here's one: http://www.niu.edu/~jdye/AthenianSex.html

[blitzkrieg80]

Just for the fun of it, I'll tell you something about Celts. There are written sources at the time of the great Celtic invasion of Greece, that tell us how strange the Greeks found the fact that mature male Celts slept with each other. Now does that sound as the opinion a man from Greece (or gay paradise as many would like to falsely believe), who was so accustomed to homosexuality? I don't think so.

literally 'slept' / or 'sex' and you are being polite? two men sleeping together in a cold night means nothing, and the Greeks would have found being 'barbarous' and impoverished in that regard amusing regardless of sexual orientation. is there more evidence to be brought to bear on this? i think this is a nice piece of citation (thank you), but it is definitely contextual, unless you can enlighten me on how more can be determined... i must say i am highly interested because i was under the impression that Celtic society enforced heterosexuality to the point of being an 'unfree' and particularly brutal people (conservatively), but i have no evidence myself, other than observation / discussion / reading. i want to know if am wrong, because if this evidence has a stronger basis than just modern implication in 'sleeping' concerning their actual fornication practices in Celtic culture, it would change things a lot.

i just hope that if the pre-battle prep was done as proposed, that they weren't together in a group when they did it... ugh

[Cyrus]

No, we don't mind at all Recoil. It's just that this is getting off topic.

Frankly, Ancient Greeks and Romans would probably be insulted that we divide lovers into "gay" and "straight." Their mindset was very different from ours.

Frankly, I'm all for gay rights. I don't understand this crap that the government makes ("Defense of Marriage Act" - big misnomer, actually prevents federal recognition of gay marriage. wtf why do you care if someone is gay, people?)

We just don't like it, what is wrong with not seeing gayness? would you like it if they could do anything they want (ie kissing in public, wich by the way is illegal in most countries including mine)?
Anyway i know this post is getting off topic so i think it sould be closed as his cuestion has been answered.

[Megas Methuselah]

[blitzkrieg80]

no, the question hasn't been answered! wtf - have you been reading the thread or skipping to the parts you like? the question wasn't anything to do with homosexuality or the pop term 'gay'... DROP THAT DISCUSSION.

there has been no case of physical or literary evidence for or against the question... i would bring some if i had any, but i admit there isn't much chance of there being any because it is very 'fringe' on the scale of topics preserved throughout history. not a lot of demand in ancient Greece or Rome for literature on what weapons exactly each man carried to recreate a video game, nor on whether they liked to diddle before they doddle in force...

what BBC program was it exactly, anyways? I have heard of some misrepresentation on recent Germanic reinactment and programs on the BBC, so they're not flawless... but the BBC is awesome anyways, imo. nobody is flawless- osprey certainly is not, nonetheless wikipedia. wiktionary is suprisingly nice for etymology (now I'm OT! )

[Cyrus]

no, the question hasn't been answered! wtf - have you been reading the thread or skipping to the parts you like? the question wasn't anything to do with homosexuality or the pop term 'gay'... DROP THAT DISCUSSION.

there has been no case of physical or literary evidence for or against the question... i would bring some if i had any, but i admit there isn't much chance of there being any because it is very 'fringe' on the scale of topics preserved throughout history. not a lot of demand in ancient Greece or Rome for literature on what weapons exactly each man carried to recreate a video game, nor on whether they liked to diddle before they doddle in force...

what BBC program was it exactly, anyways? I have heard of some misrepresentation on recent Germanic reinactment and programs on the BBC, so they're not flawless... but the BBC is awesome anyways, imo. nobody is flawless- osprey certainly is not, nonetheless wikipedia. wiktionary is suprisingly nice for etymology (now I'm OT! )

wow temper, temper man all i said is that it seemed answered to me, there really is no answer, throuout history probably some men did diddle of course, but how can we be shure? it's not like a soldier is going to keep a jurnal of it.plus you cant really trust historians about this, i'd like seeing you answering a question (that a wrinkled old man asks you)like this: do you play with yourself before a battle? and answering sincerly, still it probably was practiced by some.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Between the subject and the lack of respect here, time of this to be closed.