Cruvamendica (Goidilic Cavalry) Description Incorrect

[Riastradh]

The Historical discription for these units seems to be incorrect. Specifically this passage,

"Historically, the Goidilic tribes adopted ponies as mounts in favor of heavier horses and chariots, generally (some chariots and larger horses were used) because the ground of Ireland was too wet or rocky for a chariot or horse to move over swiftly."

This is untrue as the irish were famous for their chariots and charioteers. In fact many of the stories of ancient irish heroes such as Cuchulainn specifically speak of their awesome chariot skills. The Irish were still using some chariots when they were raiding roman britain(200-500AD), transporting them across the sea in small boats called curraghs. It's thought that the gaels didn't begin to phase out chariots till they realized from contact with the saxons that cavalry was cheaper and more manuverable to use. The Irish didn't full phase them out till around the 7th century.

Also the celts were famous for their chariot making skills and had possibly the most advanced and finely crafted chariots in the world. The Celtic chariot was drawn by a team of two horses, and measures approximately 2 m (6.56 ft) in width and 4 m (13 ft) in length. The one-piece iron rims for chariot wheels were probably a Celtic invention. Apart from the iron wheel rims and iron fittings of the hub, it was constructed from wood and wicker-work. In some instances, iron rings reinforced the joints. Another Celtic innovation was the free-hanging axle, suspended from the platform with rope. This resulted in a much more comfortable ride on bumpy terrain. There is evidence from French coins of a leather 'suspension' system for the central box, and a complex system of knotted cords for its attachment; this has informed recent working reconstructions by archaeologists.

According to Julius Caesar the Briton celts were the greatest charioteers in the world, capable of doing things in chariots other civilizations would not even try or think possible. So why the downplay?

[Celtic_Punk]

You just said that Irish aren't celts... and had nothing to do with Celtic warrior culture!! would you like to retract that statement earlier?

Also I wouldn't say that the Goidlic cavalry is incorrect. they DEFINITELY had light cavalry like that, there is solid evidence, otherwise it wouldn't be in the game. And chariots in Eire would have been so similar to other celtic chariots that there's no real reason to warrant another unit space taken up by a unique unit.

I'd like to see you attempt to extensively field chariots all over our island... Even with the roads we have today it'd be a hellish sight. (with the way they wind all over the place and turn into half a lane)

I am quite happy with the number of unique units from Eire, and was a little surprised that they were actually in there when i first played EB.

Which I have yet to thank the EB team for... THANKS GUYS! :)

[bovi]

As far as I can see, the description says that chariots and larger horses were used, however smaller mounts were more usual (and then the chariots were drawn by smaller mounts too, according to a post I found by Anthony in our internal forum). What is your problem here? Would you rather it said cavalry was hardly used, and if so why? Do you contest that the terrain could be favourable to smaller horses?

I also don't see why you bring Briton chariots into this, as what you appear to question is the proportion of use of chariots versus small cavalry in Ireland.

[lobf]

You just said that Irish aren't celts... and had nothing to do with Celtic warrior culture!! would you like to retract that statement earlier?

Also I wouldn't say that the Goidlic cavalry is incorrect. they DEFINITELY had light cavalry like that, there is solid evidence, otherwise it wouldn't be in the game. And chariots in Eire would have been so similar to other celtic chariots that there's no real reason to warrant another unit space taken up by a unique unit.

I'd like to see you attempt to extensively field chariots all over our island... Even with the roads we have today it'd be a hellish sight. (with the way they wind all over the place and turn into half a lane)

I am quite happy with the number of unique units from Eire, and was a little surprised that they were actually in there when i first played EB.

Which I have yet to thank the EB team for... THANKS GUYS! :)

I'm sure you're using sources and not just conjecture and opinion, so I'd love to hear where you learned all your history!

[Celtic_Punk]

thats like asking the EB team that question dude... Im just supporting them. They've done their research. I'm willing to trust them. Plus I've got experience in my own island as well. Logically smaller horses, and cavalry not chariots, are better suited to the constant rain many marshes, and terrain of Eire.

Have you ever been there lobf?

[saxonbattlemask]

celtic punk is right i live in ireland i know

[Taliferno]

There is clear archaeological evidence that calvary (or at least horse riding/mounted Infantry) was used in Ireland during this time period as horse riding bits and trappings account for about a quarter of all metal la tene finds in Ireland. There is little evidence in the archaeological context for chariots though, and if it wasn't for the Irish early christian myths placing great emphasis on the use of chariots, most archaeologists would probably agree that no chariots were used at all in Ireland, other than the odd imported prestige piece from Britain.

[lobf]

thats like asking the EB team that question dude... Im just supporting them. They've done their research. I'm willing to trust them. Plus I've got experience in my own island as well. Logically smaller horses, and cavalry not chariots, are better suited to the constant rain many marshes, and terrain of Eire.

Have you ever been there lobf?

...Yes, it would be like asking them that same thing. I don't understand your point. It's not like the team hasn't been wrong in the past. And what experience on your island prepares you to answer a question about the types of horses they used there thousands of years ago? I mean, I'm not even saying you're necessarily wrong, just that you don't know what you're saying. Stop dropping "facts" without reason. ("They said it first" is not a reason.)

And yeah, I've been to Ireland. My grandpa was raised there and I still have family there. What's this got to do with anything?

celtic punk is right i live in ireland i know

Thank you, professor Ireland.

[Celtic_Punk]

how many different celtic peoples used light skirmisher cavalry?

why would Eire be any different? plus the fact that theres smaller horses there than other places in comparison.
(well anything under 14 hands is considered a pony, correct?)

Especially in a place where the preferred chariots get bogged down in the mud and rain and thus slaughtered .
Jesus... I dont mean have you been there on vacation. and just happend to be there the one weekend it didn't rain. (which never ever ever happens lol)

here we'll play a little game, you can be Bodaccia invading ireland, and I can be the dirty useless fenian that pulls you off your bogged down chariot and slays you because you decided riding a horse in that climate is stupid.

do me a favour lobf, keep mum

[Tellos Athenaios]

Have you ever been there lobf?

And yeah, I've been to Ireland. My grandpa was raised there and I still have family there. What's this got to do with anything?

Perhaps...

Logically smaller horses, and cavalry not chariots, are better suited to the constant rain many marshes, and terrain of Eire.

Or is that too obvious? Mind you I've never been to Ireland, but having been to something called a
'wetland' (which is where local muncipality used to keep horses) I can assure you that such terrain isn't very suited to the larger breeds. And that's not even a bog, yet.

[Zradha Pahlavan]

Also the celts were famous for their chariot making skills and had possibly the most advanced and finely crafted chariots in the world.

I'm actually not sure that their chariots were that great when compared to others used in history. In the time period of EB they were the only chariots still used for military purposes, other than the occasional scythed chariot, which weren't that useful except for their scythes.

But if you go back before EB, the Celtic chariotry is really outclassed. The Hittites and Assyrians fielded heavy three-man chariots that were far more capable in a charge or a sustained melee than the chariots of later times. And of course there were the famous light chariots used as archery platforms, though their usefulness probably came more from the archer's skill than the chariot itself. But back to the point, chariot building was practically an art form in the mid-east before the average cavalryman took over. The Hittite chariots were particularly well regarded for their fine construction, though the Egyptian vehicles were much lighter by comparison.

[The Persian Cataphract]

According to Julius Caesar the Briton celts were the greatest charioteers in the world, capable of doing things in chariots other civilizations would not even try or think possible. So why the downplay?

There is no downplaying anywhere, just common prudence: Chariotry in warfare were declining since the fall of the Assyrian hegemony, and the ascendancy of the era of the Tetrarchy. Assyriologists have in particular reserved a unique fascination for the Mitanni heavy chariotry (Mariyannu) which in many ways marked the crest of Near Eastern military technology, especially as far as horse-bardings are concerned (Besides the battle of Kadesh between the Egyptian and Hittite kingdoms).

These times were from several centuries from that of Julius Caesar's contemporary world modestly speaking. Where was Julius Caesar in all of his life and why does he make laudatory reference to Briton chariotry when conventional cavalry had in essence replaced chariotry in the rest of the world? The Indians too used chariots, but eventually relegated as symbols of military status. If you cannot spot one critical flaw with using Julius Caesar's narration as a yard-stick reference, then one must dispute your judgement. Chariots fell out of use in militaria because in comparison to cavalry it just wasn't as effective.

[Riastradh]

Ok dont have much time for this reply so I will try to explain a bit more til I get home from work. First the part that is incorrect about the description is that chariots weren't used much in favor of light cavalry. While Light cavarly was used, so were chariots. A lot of Irish Legends speak specifically of them. My main goal is that it should be acknowledged that the Irish fielded chariots quite often, not that they appeared rarely.

The Reason why I included the part about celtic/british chariots is mainly concerning the casse chariots in comparison to others such as the pontic ones in EB. Casse chariots in game have very limited use and in antiquity, Caesar himself says they were a very powerful force to be reckoned with.

Also, to those siting that people should know what Ireland's terrain/geogreaphy is like and such, I am very well aware of the land of Eire. I was born and raised in Killarney, Co. Kerry Ireland. While I currently live in States, I still go back every year to visit my cousins in Dundalk, Co. Louth.

Will explain more later tonight.

[Celtic_Punk]

The fact is Chariots are much more poetical than light cavalry rushing up throwing javalins then retreating. legends are to inspire people to do brave things. i can hardly call light cavalry brave... maybe ballsy but not brave. well in comparison to rushing a gap with a chariot. but the fact remain aswell, its almost impossible to widely field chariots on the island.

[lobf]

but the fact remain aswell, its almost impossible to widely field chariots on the island.

[blitzkrieg80]

come on, Homer writes about the use of chariots when in-fact, they were not in fashion concerning Greek warfare during the historical timeline, but somehow Irish legend is so much more historically accurate!? should i then believe that Beowulf can swim with 30 mailshirts in tow?

[Atilius]

... should i then believe that Beowulf can swim with 30 mailshirts in tow?

In spite of the fact that Beowulf has a horny monster, the monster's mommy, and a dragon, that was the only thing that ever made me think "Oh come on, no way!".

[ziegenpeter]

I don't intend to interfere much, but you shouldn't forget that Irelend 2300 years ago may have looked much different from nowadays.
If this wasn't mentioned before...

[Celtic_Punk]

yes it was mentioned, and yes it was different. More muggy and rainy (if you thought that was even possible haha)

[Taliferno]

Ok dont have much time for this reply so I will try to explain a bit more til I get home from work. First the part that is incorrect about the description is that chariots weren't used much in favor of light cavalry. While Light cavarly was used, so were chariots. A lot of Irish Legends speak specifically of them. My main goal is that it should be acknowledged that the Irish fielded chariots quite often, not that they appeared rarely.

The Reason why I included the part about celtic/british chariots is mainly concerning the casse chariots in comparison to others such as the pontic ones in EB. Casse chariots in game have very limited use and in antiquity, Caesar himself says they were a very powerful force to be reckoned with.

Also, to those siting that people should know what Ireland's terrain/geogreaphy is like and such, I am very well aware of the land of Eire. I was born and raised in Killarney, Co. Kerry Ireland. While I currently live in States, I still go back every year to visit my cousins in Dundalk, Co. Louth.

Will explain more later tonight.

As soon as any chariot is discovered let me know. At the moment all there is are a couple of wooden yokes which are just as likely to have been used for ox driven carts for agrigculture as a War chariot. There is a single terret (a device for holding the reins of a chariot) found in County Antrim that was apparently imported from North Britain. Compare this single find to the 140 terrets found in Britain.
To put it simply there is not enough archaeological evidence to say that War chariots were a common feature in Ireland. In Rome Total War terms they would probably be represented as a family bodyguard, and since there is no Irish faction, there is no need for a chariot unit.