Cruvamendica (Goidilic Cavalry) Description Incorrect

[oudysseos]

Elmetiacos, again I'll defer to your superior linguistic knowledge, but my comment about monks and chariots was somewhat tongue-in-cheek.

However, I would still take the Tain with a large grain of salt as a source of accurate historical information, even if one were to concede its debt to a much older oral tradition. What I mean by that is, I don't suppose for a minute that the 12th century compiler from the Book of Leinster made up the story out of whole cloth. Clearly there was a known collection of stories: but the situation is very different from that of the Iliad and the Odyssey. According to Thomas Kinsella, Frank O'Connor and Cecile O'Rahilly, the language of the Book of Leinster version of the Tain is consistently 12th century Irish, unlike the Iliad, whose language reveals centuries of oral tradition and mixes otherwise widely divergent linguistic elements. The Tain is as if Homer took the elements of the story handed down to him and rewrote them in his own current idiom.

The Yellow Book of Lecan's somewhat older and more authentic version of the Tain is

...the work of many hands and in places is little more than the mangled remains of miscellaneous scribal activities. There are major inconsistencies and repetitions among the incidents. On occasion the narrative withers away into cryptic notes and summaries. Extraneous matter is added, varying from simple glosses and comments to wholesale indiscriminate interpolations from other sources, in some cases over erased passages of the original; Frank O'Connor, in The Backward Look, his short history of Irish literature, says that, as a result, 'the Cattle Raid has been rendered practically unintelligible'

(from Thomas Kinsella's introduction to the Tain).

The extent to which legends and myths are based on fact is grounds for lots of enjoyable speculation, but one ought to be careful.

Frank O'Connor suggested that the earliest layer of the story, incompletely preserved in the rosc passages, constitutes the remains of an ancient ironic anti-feminist poem. T.F. O'Rahilly believed that the Ulster stories describe the historical circumstances of the invasion of Ulster by Ui Neill invaders from Leinster (not Connacht), the idea of Medb as queen of Connacht - 'Medb' was in fact the tutelary goddess of Temair, or Tara, in Leinster- being amistake on the part of writers who were unaware that the Irish tribes did not have queens.

(Kinsella, ibid.)

So if you thought that you knew something about a historical queen of Connacht, you would probably be wrong.

What does this have to do with chariots? All I'm saying is, that the Dal Riada chariots are 6 or 7 hundred years later than the EB time period. In the same amount of time, Roman military practice changed out of recognition. Can one safely assume that the Irish remained static for that long? Riastradh, if your main goal is that it should be acknowledged that the Irish fielded chariots in the EB time period quite often, not that they appeared rarely, I think that you still have a long way to go.

[bovi]

6. Ponies were superior when charging an enemy's flank

Why?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Why?

Yes, I'd like to know this as well.

[Elmetiacos]

I've got hold of the Annals of Tigernach http://www.archive.org/stream/annals...kuoft_djvu.txt and I can't find any mention of chariots at Moin Dairi Lothair... is there another source?

[Taliferno]

I've got hold of the Annals of Tigernach http://www.archive.org/stream/annals...kuoft_djvu.txt and I can't find any mention of chariots at Moin Dairi Lothair... is there another source?

The annals of Ulster is another source, with a pretty garbled account of it. Again, no mention of chariots.

"The battle of Móin Daire Lothair won over the Cruithin by the Uí Néill of the North. Baetán son of Cenn with two branches of the Cruithin(?) fight it against the Cruithin. Cenél nEógain and Cenél Conaill were hired, being given the Lee and Ard Eolarg as recompense.

1] Weapons press forward, men press forward
2] In the great bog of Daire Lothair,
3] A cause of strife discomfited
4] Around the king of the Cruithin, Aed Brecc.
1] The battle of all the Cruithin is fought,
2] They burn Eilne;
3] The battle of Gabar Liphi is fought,
4] And the battle of Cúil Dreimne.
1] Hostages are taken away after conflict,
2] Away west, with a human harvest(?)
3] By Forgus, Domnall. Ainmire,
4] And Nainnid son of Daui.
1] Mac Erca's two sons returned
2] In the same manner;
3] The king Ainmire came back
4] With the possessions of Sétna.
1] Splendidly moves
2] Baetán's steed upon the host;
3] Well satisfied is Baetán of the yellow hair,
4] It will carry its little load(?) upon it."

EDIT
just read that St Adomnán of Iona mentions it (and the chariot) in the Vita Columbae. The chariots aren't actually used in battle, but, according to Adomnán, the king [B]escapes[B] from the battle in a chariot.

[kekailoa]

I think that this thread has gotten a little off topic, and because of CP's extremely nationalistic bias, it wasn't really answering the question for a while. Kudoes to Bovi for getting it back on track.

And I agree about the pony flanking issue. Getting hit by a pony is not quite the same as getting hit by a Shire.

[Elmetiacos]

The annals of Ulster is another source, with a pretty garbled account of it. Again, no mention of chariots...
just read that St Adomnán of Iona mentions it (and the chariot) in the Vita Columbae. The chariots aren't actually used in battle, but, according to Adomnán, the king [B]escapes[B] from the battle in a chariot.

Ah, got it - http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/L201040/index.html My Latin is worse than my Irish, but I think the relevant passage is Sed et de rege Cruithniorum, qui Echodius Laib vocitabatur, quemadmodum victus, currui insidens evaserit, similiter Sanctus prophetizavit. Still, it's a bit of a leap from one of the Lives saying that a Pictish king, as the Saint had foretold, escaped in a chariot (or something like) to saying that this was a battle fought with chariots... it's funny how when you start digging deep, a lot of history is a game of Chinese whispers.

[ziegenpeter]

I don't intend to interfere much, but you shouldn't forget that Irelend 2300 years ago may have looked much different from nowadays.
If this wasn't mentioned before...

[Celtic_Punk]

yes it was mentioned, and yes it was different. More muggy and rainy (if you thought that was even possible haha)

[lobf]

yes it was mentioned, and yes it was different. More muggy and rainy (if you thought that was even possible haha)

I'd like to know how you know this, too.

[oudysseos]

Hey, Riastradh (and anyone else), I thought that if you're into the Tain and chariots and stuff you might like this mod http://www.chamber-of-records.com/fo...ead.php?t=2007
Gods and Fighting Men (for the Alexander expansion I'm afraid) but all about Ireland! It's a hoot! And beautifully done, too.

[Celtic_Punk]

Try Arthurian Total war aswell. Its all about the isles. I'm not sure about chariot activity in it. I'm sure there is a bunch but I only got so far in it before I was annihilated by the Munster(mash)'s and Connacht... BASTARDS! Oh the life of the Ui Neils was a hairy one.