The Irish are Not Celts

[oudysseos]

I've looked into this a little, being an interested party, as it were. The OP may have had good intentions on posting an interesting article, but he is very guilty of over-interpreting one popular science version of serious genetic research to make a huge claim in order to criticize the EB team. Unfortunately that is not what the scientists or the journalist said at all.

1.

The Irish are not Celts and their warrior culture had nothing to do with Celtic tribes

There are some problems with this statement. Let's define some terms.

Celts: in modern terms the word Celt is used to describe any one of the many European peoples who speak, or spoke, a Celtic language. The Goidelic/Gaelic languages (spoken in Ireland) have been identified as part of the Celtic language group since the 17th century or so. That kinda makes the Irish 'Celts' right there, by definition.
Of course, the Celts were not a monolithic homogeneous people: they didn't all speak the same language and were never united politically. Their common cultural and linguistic heritage never prevented them from whuppin ass on each other at every opportunity. The Irish and Gauls could be very different from each other (even genetically) and still both be Celts.

In any event McEvoy and Bradley are not asserting that the Irish were not Celtic in language, material culture or myth, but rather that they did not acquire their Celtishness (neologism, anyone?) genetically.
There are some authors that it would be worthwhile investigating if you're interested in this subject; Bryan Sykes, Blood of the Isles
http://books.google.ie/books?id=-w1y...refox-a&pgis=1
Stephen Oppenheimer, The Origins of the British
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0786...tu#reader-link

In fact an example drawn from Sykes perfectly illustrates what's wrong with Riastradhs statement: genetically less than 2 per cent of the English are descended from the Normans. Would you conclude on this basis that the Normans never conquered England? And the Roman genetic contribution is even smaller. Does that mean that Agricola was only a myth? Who built Hadrian's wall then?
Using genetic markers to make statements about culture is very chancy. According to Sykes the genetic makeup of the British Isles remains overwhelmingly what it was in the Neolithic: a mixture of the first Mesolithic inhabitants with Neolithic settlers who came by sea from Iberia and ultimately from the eastern Mediterranean. But the culture of the British Isles is not Neolithic or Iberian. So maybe, just maybe, sex is not the preferred method for diffusing culture.

2.

Another problem with Riastradhs statement is that he asserts that he knows what Irish warrior culture [in the EB timeframe] was like (i.e. not Celtic).

There are no Irish written source from the EB timeframe, and damned little written about Ireland by anyone else, so I wonder on what grounds does Riastradh base his knowledge of Irish warrior culture? He referenced the Tain in another thread. The earliest manuscript for the Tain comes from the 12th century ce, and was considered a fable by one of the scribes who wrote it down. There is some evidence that the oral tradition for the Tain goes back to the 6th century ce, which is remarkable, but hardly takes us into the EB time frame.

All in all, I would think that the onus is on Riastradh to prove that he has better information about Irish warrior culture in the 3rd century bce than the EB team.

3.

In fact, the idea that there was some kind of a mass celtic invasion(peaceful or otherwise) into Ireland has been disproven (sic).

"Disproven" is a little extreme. There appears to be a general academic consensus that Celtic culture in Ireland developed gradually and continuously, and that the introduction of Celtic language and elements of Celtic culture was a result of cultural exchange with Celtic groups on South West continental Europe from the neolithic to the Bronze Age. However, this is not universally accepted by all scholars, according to a TCD source of mine who unfortunately must remain anonymous. I think that the consensus is probably true, but even so Riastradh has got the wrong end of that stick if he wants to beat someone with it. To wit: none of these geneticists or scholars dispute the existence of Celtic Culture in Ireland, just its origin. True, there does not seem to be genetic evidence for a massive Celtic invasion in 600 bce, but Celtic culture was prevalent in Ireland by the time people started writing about it. It got there somehow.

[Celtic_Punk]

Plus you gotta accept the fact that Ireland is really now the least influenced celtic culture on the planet. Its one of the few places on earth you can find towns that purely speak gaelic.

I mean most of the Welsh either cant speak Welsh or can speak both (whether they want you to know it or not... buggers) Same with scotland. I dont know about the cornish or the Bretons. But those are the ONLY surviving celts.

[Shylence]

Plus you gotta accept the fact that Ireland is really now the least influenced celtic culture on the planet. Its one of the few places on earth you can find towns that purely speak gaelic.

I mean most of the Welsh either cant speak Welsh or can speak both (whether they want you to know it or not... buggers) Same with scotland. I dont know about the cornish or the Bretons. But those are the ONLY surviving celts.

Ill have to correct you there. There is not anywhere left in the "celtic" world which speaks a mongolot "Celtic language" They either only know English or both there is no Irish only.

Infact I was in the Connemara not long ago with a cousin and her bf. Now her Bf was wearing a Northern Ireland top. and as he entered the people in the shop changed from English to Irish.
Knowing of course that we were outsiders.


I can say with 99% certainty that there are, sadly, no mongolot Irish speakers left. To not understand the English language in Ireland would really dis-advantage you in life. which is funny because its one of the main reasons why the "celtic" languages have declined.

[Celtic_Punk]

there are a few islands off the west coast mate. these gaelic only communities are few and far between sadly.