The Irish are Not Celts

[Frostwulf]

I pretty much have to agree for the most part with cmacq on the Belgae(drifting thread) as backed up by Caesar,Tacitus and the modern authors of Maureen Carrol and Simon James.
" But a more important point is that the peoples-called-(by Caesar, and probably among themselves)-Gauls were actually highly diverse, and some of them, especially some of the peoples-called-(by Caesar, and probably among themselves)-Belgae were culturally and perhaps linguistically more like the peoples-called-(by Caesar, and *perhaps* already among themselves)-Germans than like (say) Aquitanian Gauls. 'The Germans', especially in the 1st cent BC, were probably mostly a construct in Roman minds, rather than a self-defined or definable group of peoples with similar social structures, or other qualities (substitute 'generic American Indians' for 'Germans' and you see what I mean)."-Simon James.

[blitzkrieg80]

awesomely put examples, CmacQ and Frostwulf... that illustrates the point i was trying to get at

so now you guys have stirred up some interesting conversation pieces... would then the Cimbri be part of that configuration or at least the Celtic-like component which we see in the Gundestrup cauldron? i think so, at least the Celtic part... and also, what about the Lugii? maybe not Przeworsk, but Oskywie... or Tacitus' implied P-Celtic-speakers of Veneti? who stand out so sharply in 'No Man's Land'? this reminds me of your work, CmacQ, on the global 'disaster' in ancient Denmark and wanderings in the East... could this be related to:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

i'm intrigued... too bad we still have the same information, hehe, but this conversation doesn't happen by many!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-I...heses#Genetics

The present-day population of R1b, with extremely high peaks in Western Europe and measured up to the eastern confines of Central Asia, are believed to be the descendants of a refugium in the Iberian peninsula (Portugal and Spain) at the Last Glacial Maximum, where the haplogroup may have achieved genetic homogeneity. As conditions eased with the Allerød Oscillation in about 12,000 BC, descendants of this group migrated and eventually recolonised all of Western Europe, leading to the dominant position of R1b in variant degrees from Iberia to Scandinavia, so evident in haplogroup maps. The most common subclade is R1b1c9, that has a maximum in Frisia (the Netherlands). It may have originated towards the end of the last ice age, or perhaps more or less 7000 BC, possibly in the northern European mainland.[3]

Developments in genetics take away much of the edge of the sometimes heated controversies about invasions. While findings confirm that there were population movements both related to the beginning Neolithic and the beginning Bronze Age, corresponding to Renfrew's and Gimbutas's Indo-Europeans, respectively, the genetic record obviously cannot yield any direct information as to the language spoken by these groups. The current interpretation of genetic data suggests a strong genetic continuity in Europe; specifically, studies by Bryan Sykes show that about 80% of the genetic stock of Europeans originated in the Paleolithic, suggesting that languages tend to spread geographically by cultural contact rather than by invasion and extermination, i.e. much more peacefully than was described in some invasion scenarios, and thus the genetic record does not rule out the historically much more common type of invasions where a new group assimilates the earlier inhabitants. This very common scenario of successive small scale invasions where a ruling nation imposed its language and culture on a larger indigenous population was what Gimbutas had in mind:[citation needed]

The Process of Indo-Europeanization was a cultural, not a physical transformation. It must be understood as a military victory in terms of imposing a new administrative system, language and religion upon the indigenous groups.

Seems to agree!

[cmacq]

Right,



the Veneti and those pesky Lugii. From the Belgae, the Istaevones, and Ingaevones may have formed a cultural bridge to the west Balts; in this case it would be the Aestii, or as the Saxons called it Æstum? That is a bridge that was smashed by the entry of the Irminones/Hermiones, who were without doubt the dad of the Deutsch, with Irmin from the Old Norse jǫrmun (meaning strong?). So Tactius tells us that Irmin's dad was Mannus, who was simply put; Human Kind. However, despite what Tactius wrote about the Istaevones/Istriaones/Istriones their name implies they were somehow associated with a Istros/Istri/Histria/Ιστριη progenitor, possibly a deity associated with flowing rivers or a coastal region (Rhine and/or North Sea?), and shellfish (Ostrea???).

On the other hand the Ingaevones, or followers of Ing, seem to have been affiliated with a deity, that was roughly analogous to what the Medieval Irish called Angus/Aengus/Oengus, the Tuatha De Danann god of love, youth, and fine words. It seems that Ing was the predecessor to the later Norse Freyr, which simply means, Lord. The Norse Freyr also seems to have been given Ing's attributes, which were similar to those of Aengus/Oengus. So, Ing-landia ='s England; no way! or way? Maybe that’s one reason why it seems difficult for researchers to find so-called Saxon-DNA in Britain?

Interestingly, Jordanes claimed that the historic Hermanaric/Irmanaric, or as Beowulf had it, Eormenric, subjected these British-like-speaking (from Tactius) Aestii. That would be a hoot if the name Aestii was taken from Eesti/Estonia: so that in Prussa and northern Poland, here would be a Finnic basal population with a western Balt aristocracy that was first allied with Veneti and Lugii and a little latter subjected by the Goths, whom were of course, Deutsch. Alls well as far as the archeaology, yet what about those pesky Lugii???

Again, I'd put the Belgae, Istaevones, and Ingaevones as predominatly Brythonic; center, southwest, and southern Germany as Celt; and only extreme northeast Germany as Hermiones or Deutsch. Of course, this in the 3rd to 1st centuries BC, after which the picture changed very quickly, and very dramatically. All I can say is they; that is the Lugii, were considered Germans but not Celt, not Belgic, not Deutsch, most likely not Balt, and by all means not Slav. However, with that said, the attributes of this ethnos appear to have been usurped by, and eventually came to characterize the Deutsch speakers. I’m speculating this process began in the very late 4th century, but more likely to have occurred in the late 3rd BC. However, it is clear that it wasn’t until after the Cimbric event of the late 2nd century that the followers of Irmin became the dominant force in northwest Germany, which lead to significant territorial expansion to the east, west, and south. Of course, these expansions were greatly facilitated by the a dramatic shift to a much cooler-dryer global climate, the relative depopulation of Nordic Scandinavia with a steady demographic flow of the displaced south into northern Germany and Poland, as well as the late Gallo-Roman and early Germano-Roman wars of the 1st centuries BC and AD. Nonetheless, an interesting scenario that fits the archaeology very well.



CmacQ