C'mon Ireland, you know you want to...

[InsaneApache]

and get the vote right this time.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

and get the vote right this time.

Oh, no. They haven't proposed another one, have they?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

They'll keep proposing it until Ireland accepts. That's the point.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

They'll keep proposing it until Ireland accepts. That's the point.

Of course, I just thought they'd actually done it again.

[Hooahguy]

it would be nice if the OP would explain what he is talking about...

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

it would be nice if the OP would explain what he is talking about...

This

This

[Tribesman]

The way Biffo is making screw up after screw up at the moment and considering his party/coilition is in tatters reeling from one disaster to another he would be a complete idiot to try and force a second vote .
So expect a second vote very shortly
So considering a possible timetable , how is he going to manage to sell the treaty once Klaus takes the chair as it will be very very hard to sell the idea when the person in the chair is opposed to the treaty .
Anyway surely we are due another vote on abortion again before we go to another vote on Lisbon .

[InsaneApache]

@Tribes

I heard it will be in october 09.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Ireland democratically decided to join the EU, through various previous agreements. This does not mean that they shoud forever hold their breath. They are perfectly entitled to subject any existing or future treaty to whatever democratic decision making process of their liking.

Just because they said 'yes' once, does not mean they forfeited the opportunity to say 'no' the next time. Likewise, just because they said 'non' once, does not mean they shouldn't have an opportunity to say 'yes' next time.

Neither the pro nor the anti treaty camp can insist the other camp should forever hold its breath. I really don't understand the outrage.

[LittleGrizzly]

Well in fairness to the anti EU camp what are the realistic chances of a do you want to pull back out of the treaty vote ?

[InsaneApache]

It's funny how they don't insist on another vote when the voters get it 'right' though, isn't it?

[LittleGrizzly]

Well as i see it, it would be an anti EU party that would eventually propse a vote to exit the eu treaty...

That being said... as the treaty was never properly ratified there is no treaty to repeal... so its a bit hard to know....

TBH once the treaty has gone through i very much doubt it would be repealed anywhere barring major circumstances... so imo the anti eu camp are right to try anything and everything to stop a vote and then make sure its rejected... once its passed it aint coming down...

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Just because they said 'yes' once, does not mean they forfeited the opportunity to say 'no' the next time.

We were given the opportunity to say no? Really? I obviously didn't get the memo from Empress High Chancellor Ms. Merkel. How unfortunate.

[LittleGrizzly]

Are any of the larger party's in europe anti eu ?

In britian it is only the 4th largest party that is anti eu, and they aren't really a party with any power, they have a few european parlimentary seats but none in our native parliment (which is kind of ironic...) so there is not really an option for anti eu'rs.... how about in Germany ? France ? ect. ?

[Louis VI the Fat]

TBH once the treaty has gone through i very much doubt it would be repealed anywhere barring major circumstances... so imo the anti eu camp are right to try anything and everything to stop a vote and then make sure its rejected... once its passed it aint coming down...

Actually, the Lisbon treaty was the first EU treaty to give countries an easy way out of the EU, should they ever so desire.

It's funny how they don't insist on another vote when the voters get it 'right' though, isn't it?

The Irish did get it 'right' the last time. In 1992, Ireland voted 'yes' to the Maastricht Treaty. And they got it 'right' the time before that. Etcetera.

However, the pro EU camp never uses this as an argument against any future referendums. Ireland can have as many EU referendums as it likes. They can have one every week if they want. Only the anti EU camp wants to silence all opposition by demanding that Ireland can never have another EU referendum again.

We were given the opportunity to say no? Really?

The German constitution does not provide for a referendum. The German people express their democratic wish through other means. This does not mean that Germany isn't a rock-solid democracy by even the highest standards.

[LittleGrizzly]

Actually, the Lisbon treaty was the first EU treaty to give countries an easy way out of the EU, should they ever so desire.

But no goverment in power seems like they would be willing to do that, and without a willing goverment you won't pull out, and there aren't scheduled referendums asking if they want to stay in the eu.... for example in the uk in current political climate your only option would be voting UKIP, who will never win an election, so you could never get out once your in basically... barring as i said major circumstance change, of course if a goverment was willing im sure it would be easy, but with major political parties all being pro eu (in uk) you wouldn't have a choice...

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

how about in Germany ?

Depends. Do you prefer communists or fascists?

The German constitution does not provide for a referendum. The German people express their democratic wish through other means. This does not mean that Germany isn't a rock-solid democracy by even the highest standards.

Section II, Article 20, Line 2. Point on the matter. The lack of a referendum may not be unconstitutional, but the Treaty itself?

The government should ask the people. They should care. Merkel doesn't - and she certainly won't receive my vote.

[LittleGrizzly]

Depends. Do you prefer communists or fascists

well im a red at heart so commies i guess.... these are very minor parties in germany i assume ?

and i though facist parties were banned in germany after the last one ?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

well im a red at heart so commies i guess.... these are very minor parties in germany i assume ?

One is, one isn't. Die Linke (The Left) manages to maintain fifty-three seats in the Bundestag. They're not "really" communist, but since they're essentially a successor party of this...

and i though facist parties were banned in germany after the last one ?

No, only Neo-Nazi parties are banned. Fascists are alright, according to the courts. That'd be these guys.

EDIT: I quite like him as a politician, and I'm probably going to vote for Die Republikaner, because I can't stomach voting for a fascist party and I despise the European Union too much to vote for the FDP.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Section II, Article 20, Line 2. Point on the matter. The lack of a referendum may not be unconstitutional, but the Treaty itself?

The government should ask the people. They should care. Merkel doesn't - and she certainly won't receive my vote.

the German Federal constitution has no provision for referendums. The constitution will have to be amended to allow for a referendum.

Alas, Section II, Article 20, Line 2 does not provide for a referendum at the federal level. At the provincial level, referendums are provided for.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Ireland democratically decided to join the EU, through various previous agreements. This does not mean that they shoud forever hold their breath. They are perfectly entitled to subject any existing or future treaty to whatever democratic decision making process of their liking.

Just because they said 'yes' once, does not mean they forfeited the opportunity to say 'no' the next time. Likewise, just because they said 'non' once, does not mean they shouldn't have an opportunity to say 'yes' next time.

Neither the pro nor the anti treaty camp can insist the other camp should forever hold its breath. I really don't understand the outrage.

Funny how people don't get the chance to say "no" after they've said "yes".


Has there been any clamoring for a second vote in Ireland, or is this just the EU insisting it gets its way? Come on now, surely you don't view this as an innocent chance for the Irish people to ponder the question again? If you do, why have all the countries who voted "yes" or decreed they were in agreement not got a second chance to review their decisions?

The treaty requires full support. It hasn't got it. That means the treaty should be dead.

CR

[Louis VI the Fat]

Has there been any clamoring for a second vote in Ireland, or is this just the EU insisting it gets its way? Come on now, surely you don't view this as an innocent chance for the Irish people to ponder the question again?

What I find funny is how the jubilant 'no' camp assumes it is the spokesperson for Ireland. Close to half the Irish people voted 'yes'. There is a massive pro-Treaty and an even larger pro-EU camp in Ireland.

Why do they need to be silenced forever? Just because a previous referendum gave the anti-camp their favoured result? Should America never hold an election anymore now that the American people have voted 'correctly'?




The refused treaty, 'Lisbon' was in 2004. The referendum about a new treaty will be held five years later. The world is different, Ireland is different.

For one, for those who haven't noticed: the EU has been going trough its finest hour in the past few months. It is commonly regarded a great instrument of stablity during the financial crisis. The euro has proved its worth as well.

[LittleGrizzly]

If you do, why have all the countries who voted "yes" or decreed they were in agreement not got a second chance to review their decisions?

Unless i am misunderstanding the issue, because the treaty was never ratified there is no decision for these countries to overturn

Edit: if anyone does want out they'll have to go the political route... in which case we'll declare war and make them stay! damn confederates...

[CountArach]

We were given the opportunity to say no? Really? I obviously didn't get the memo from Empress High Chancellor Ms. Merkel. How unfortunate.

Don't be daft EMFM, no one was stopping you from getting elected to Chancellor

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

the German Federal constitution has no provision for referendums. The constitution will have to be amended to allow for a referendum.

It is rather ironic that the provision that was supposed to save us from a totalitarian transition has led us to accept one without choice.

Alas, Section II, Article 20, Line 2 does not provide for a referendum at the federal level.

Yes, you are correct. However, it does practically make the entire Lisbon Treaty unconstitutional.

Don't be daft EMFM, no one was stopping you from getting elected to Chancellor

Who knows, perhaps I'll consider running.

[KukriKhan]

It's probably splitting hairs, but I'm curious: Wasn't the reason for the referendum in Ireland for the people to decide whether to amend their own constitution, which would inturn allow adoption of Lisbon - not a "yea" or 'Nay" on Lisbon itself?

If I got that right (and I'm not sure I have) that method of ratifying the treaty seems doomed from the start.

"Would you rather: 1) give up all sovreignity over your own affairs, in favour of Brussels dictating? Or

2) Keep everything the way it is now?"

Who in their right mind would pick #1? The maybe 5% one-worlders, perhaps, is my best guess. If Ireland's leadership wants to get this thing passed, their gonna have to figure our a better way of framing the question.

My (now worth 27 Trln ZD's).

[LittleGrizzly]

Who in their right mind would pick #1? The maybe 5% one-worlders, perhaps, is my best guess.

The vote was fairly close so obviously quite a few people

I have never got the whole why would you want to be ruled by Brussels comment.... As if somehow londoners or dubliners are much better equipped

It's probably splitting hairs, but I'm curious: Wasn't the reason for the referendum in Ireland for the people to decide whether to amend their own constitution, which would inturn allow adoption of Lisbon - not a "yea" or 'Nay" on Lisbon itself?

I thought it was on the lisbon treaty itself, which is why the thing is being reworked, if they had said no oto a europoean constitution because it wasn't thier own the rest of the eu could have just gone ahead as ireland obviousoly didnt want in.... though im not sure....

Would you rather: 1) give up all sovreignity over your own affairs, in favour of Brussels dictating?

This annoy's me, plenty of people have said it so its not a go at you kurki

Does Washington dictate to all of america ? or is it simply where the political houses are housed ?

Brussels doesn't decide the direction of the eu, the eu does that through eu parliment and european leaders, obviously you give up a portion of control to be part of this union, i suppose you could call the choice this... direct control over your little power or shared control over a far greater power...

That being said you probably lose some control by not being a member, think usa to britian, were greatly affected by your huge power but have no influence over it, or we could have a small influence on it but lose some control over our own power....

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Brussels is simply an alternate phrase for the European Parliament, just as Ottawa is for the Canadian Parliament, Washington for the American Congress, Berlin for the Bundestag/Bundesrat, and Moscow for Russia.

[JAG]

Hopefully they get it right this time.

[Fragony]

What I find funny is how the jubilant 'no' camp assumes it is the spokesperson for Ireland. Close to half the Irish people voted 'yes'. There is a massive pro-Treaty and an even larger pro-EU camp in Ireland.

Why do they need to be silenced forever? Just because a previous referendum gave the anti-camp their favoured result? Should America never hold an election anymore now that the American people have voted 'correctly'?




The refused treaty, 'Lisbon' was in 2004. The referendum about a new treaty will be held five years later. The world is different, Ireland is different.

For one, for those who haven't noticed: the EU has been going trough its finest hour in the past few months. It is commonly regarded a great instrument of stablity during the financial crisis. The euro has proved its worth as well.

Hold a referendum on a new referendum, voila done