Constitution class Hvy Frigate posibley the first Battlecrusier

[Slammer]

To me the Constitution class frigates were the worlds first battlecrusiers.They outclassed all frigates at the time and in a stand up fight could take a 64 gunner your oppions please.

[Mailman653]

I think this goes in the Monastery?

[Martok]

It does indeed. Moved.

[Hosakawa Tito]

This book: 6 Frigates by Ian Toll, describes these innovative warships and their construction & use during the Barbary Wars & War of 1812. The British concept of how a Frigate should be constructed, armed, and employed was an accepted "apex of excellence" by the global military powers at the time, and deservedly so. The Continental design changes, materials used, and heavier armament used was predicted to be a disaster by the leading shipbuilders of that time period. Their builders/designers; Humphreys, Fox, and Doughty, were a compromise of larger size & length to carry more & heavier guns along with Fox's technical improvements. The material used for the hull, bracing "knees", etc. was Live Oak, a heavier/denser/uniquely grained wood that was far superior *thus the nickname Ironsides* than the English Oak used by the Brits. The use of 24 pounder main guns and 32 pounder carronades was also much different than the Brit use of 18 pounders on their lighter Frigates. "Pocket Battleships" indeed.

[Mailman653]

I've been wanting to read that book, but I always forget the tittle.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

They outgunned anything they couldn't outrun, for the most part (one of them, the United States, was a total lemon of a sailer).

They could, indeed, have fought a British 64 with a good likelihood of success, but please recall that the British were phasing that class out themselves at the time -- they were aware of its limitations in the Napoleonic era.

The USN's "44's" ran from British "64's" anyway, despite having a weight of metal that might have let them win -- it would have been a horrifically tough fight and possibly Pyrhhic.

[CBR]

Well technically battlecruisers were of similar weight to contemporary battleships. Constitution might have been close to a 64 but that was no longer the standard Ship of the Line when she was built.

The French had experimented with some 24 pounder frigates before that but Constitution was certainly the heaviest and a very successful design.


CBR

[Hosakawa Tito]

The US Navy didn't hesitate to engage British Frigates in one on one engagements and won or forced a stalemate in most of them, much to the total surprise of everyone. In fact, it was predicted by all that the US Navy would be destroyed very quickly, and the land army invasion of Canada would be a piece of cake in comparison. Funny how the exact opposite turned out to be the case. With the huge numerical advantage of the Royal Navy the US could not afford to lose even a single Frigate, and no one ever thought the US Navy had a prayer against the Royal Navy juggernaut. They employed the few they had to commerce raiding instead and preyed upon the rich cargo vessels returning from the East & West Indies, usually quite near British home waters. British attempts to blockade the US Frigates in their home ports was largely unsuccessful, too much coast line to cover. Even when they did manage, it didn't last for long.

The Brits did experiment with arming their Frigates with 24 pounders and found that for their lighter built ships 18 pounders were a better match. The 24's made their Frigates too top-heavy in rough seas, and some times they couldn't even risk opening the lower gun deck ports without swamping the ship. The heavier recoil also caused stress damage to the ship's support structure. I'm sure they concluded that the US was going to learn those lessons the hard way and were totally unprepared, and psyched out by the battering to their expected invincibility. The Brit captains who lost these engagements had their careers ruined by the perception that they were either cowards or inept in losing what was at first perceived to be a fight between ships of equal fire power. Only later in the war did they realize that the US Frigates had a big advantage over theirs, and adjusted their tactics accordingly.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The British did have some success with their razee program for converting old liners into frigates. When the conversion worked they ended up with a fairly swift frigate with very heavy canons. I've read that not all razees were good sailors, however.

[Tribesman]

A more accurate comparrison would be not with a Battlecruiser but with the Pocket-Battleship which itself is a misnomer as it was really a more modern armoured cruiser .
The reason being that in those terms a battlecruiser was the roughly the size and firepower of a battleship but without the protection while the armoured cruiser was an enlarged cruiser with extra protection and heavier armament , and of course frigates of the day in one of their many roles was that of a cruiser .
Being that the American spar decked (their one original feature as frigates of over 40 guns and of 24lb'ers were not that uncommon) frigates had scantlings the equivalent of a '74 and the spar deck allowed for a full second battery armoured cruiser fits the bill perfectly , though of course the later "pocket battleships" didn't fulfill its intended role as by the time they were in active service modern battleships were faster and it could no longer outrun that which it couldn't outgun . Which in a way could be said of the American frigates as the British frigates available in 1813 like Newcastle and Leander or the Forth class were considered to be faster , more weatherly and were more heavily armed than the American 3 and the American building program of more large frigates was still making little progress by the end of the war .

By the way Hosa the British blockade once it was established was very succesful in not only keeping the warships in port but also and more importantly in destroying American trade .So while American trade went from $115 million down to $20 million British trade increased year on year as did the size of its merchant fleet .

[Watchman]

Well, around that time they'd just about finished digesting all of what had once been French floating stock. (Snarky French historians sometimes quip the shipyards of France laboured for the Royal Navy those days...) And colonies and bases. I imagine they were only too happy to add some mutinous colonial wood and sailcloth to their rosters too...