Defeat (sob!)

[Brandy Blue]

Just something to talk about really ...

Anyone got any stories about battles lost that they think are interesting?

I had an army in Morocco, mostly made up of rubbish units to prevent rebellion. Well, a rebel stack showed up anyway - about 8 balistae and 8 units of Hashasins (sp?) At that time a had no experience with Hashasin at all, so I figured - a hybrid unit isn't likely to be too great in melee, and a stealth unit isn't likely to be too good at assults, because its hiding ability is thrown away, and a sword unit should fall before my cavalry. If not, then sheer numbers will win the day. Boy was I wrong! Bodies all over the place, and I only smashed just one Hashasin unit. I had a peasant unit charge them down a steep hill to pin them, while my one good unit, a Jinette, pelted them with javelins. But then I was out of javelins, and the others just chewed me up!

Next turn I sent in a really big army and did an autocalc.

[caravel]

If you look carefully you can see my men in the background running before the camel onslaught...

[Turbosatan]

Defeats? I've had a few. Actually, I've had a shedload, but anyway...

Best recent one I had was a Serbian High bridge defence. I was a bit green with the Serbs & didn't really know their unit roster that well, & it was against an equal in numbers mounted Cuman army consisting of large numbers of HAs & Steppe Cavalry & one unit of Cuman Heavies (a prideful, brave beyond belief Prince, no less). Four star princey on the pagan side & one-star provincial governor on mine (leader of a unit of HAs chosen for his acumen, not his fighting ability).

I set up my Voynuk swordsmen in front of three ranks of Shielded Bowmen; on the flanks I had four units of Pavise arbs (two each side). I had one unit of Vlastela heavies sitting back with my general out of bowshot range.

Everything went swimmingly with Cumans being decimated en masse from controlled missile fire, until the prince charges across the bridge bringing his last two whole units of HAs with him. I open up with everything I've got on the princey, thinking, "This'll do it".

Nada. The HA get in the way of my missiles, I get about a third of the CHCs, he smashes straight through the swordsmen (think: Exocet missile through butter) & into the shielded bowmen who scatter in terror. The HAs murderlise my Pavs & half a unit of Steppeys have rallied & followed their bossman over to destroy anyone brave (foolish?) enough to rally.

So, here I think: "Vlastela heavy cavalry, they look like knights, they move like knights, they certainly cost enough, I'll slam them into princey's rear while he's chasing down my archers".

Nota bene: They might look like knights but they fight like Hobilars. The CHC are distracted from killing my infantry for all of, ooh, four seconds before he sends them fleeing for their lives.

End result: Cumans 1 Serbs 0.

[seireikhaan]

This was a highly annoying defeat. Only had one single unit of horse archers to defeat, but my lousy ashigaru units routed.

[Geezer57]

I set up my Voynuk swordsmen in front of three ranks of Shielded Bowmen; on the flanks I had four units of Pavise arbs (two each side).
Everything went swimmingly with Cumans being decimated en masse from controlled missile fire, until the prince charges across the bridge ...
End result: Cumans 1 Serbs 0.

You didn't have any Voynuk Blades in your roster?!!?

They're a near-clone of Swiss Halbardiers, and would have cut that Cuman Prince into tiny gore-covered ribbons...

[Roark]

You didn't have any Voynuk Blades in your roster?!!?

They're a near-clone of Swiss Halbardiers, and would have cut that Cuman Prince into tiny gore-covered ribbons...

*ahem*

I was a bit green with the Serbs & didn't really know their unit roster that well

[Geezer57]

*ahem*

My bad ... it's just that they're one of my favorite units. I hate to see someone not sharing my enthusiasm.

[Martok]

Oh, I've definitely had a few good ones.


There was the time my Spanish king personally led an invasion of Sicilian-owned Naples (I'd lost patience after the Sicilian navy sunk my ship for the umpteenth time ). I drove off the Sicilians in the first battle, but was then unable to repel the counterattack of the combined Sicilian-Papal army that appeared 2 turns later. Lost a lot of good troops, and had to pay a hefty 66,000 florins in ransom to get my king back and the survivors of the second battle.

Lesson learned: Never, never, never, never, NEVER send your faction leader on a naval invasion....especially when he has no direct heirs at the time.


Also, I've lost to the friggin' Mongols more times than I can count. Took me months of playing before I realized that I should really stop trying to defend Khazar and pull back to Georgia/Kiev instead.

[caravel]

When I was still new to the game, one of my worst defeats was when playing as the Turks and taking on the Byzantine too early on. I remember in one battle, charging 3 units of vanilla HAs uphill at an isolated unit of Treb Archers. The trebs did not let off any volleys but instead charged the HAs downhill and routed them... the rest of the battle went similarly well...

What was left of this foolish "invasion force" then returned to Rum only to be met by a Byzantine Jedi prince from Trebizond. Which of course resulted in the loss of Rum, in turn resulting in the usual collapse of the castle and demolition of all the best buildings. Next turn the Eggies invaded Syria and/or Lesser Armenia, and it was clearly time for my 2 influence, unhinged loon, good runner, pervert Sultan to emigrate, etc, etc, etc.

[gollum]

Had plenty the most spectacular of which when was new and had no idea what all those flags carried by certain units were...

Just had one in STW when i deployed a force of Naginatas, gunners and SArchers in a flat close to the AI deploy without knowing what the enemy army was - unfortunately it was a spam of WMs that chewed the Naginatas routed the archers and guns and killed the Daimyo that was leading...

*There is no shame in death in battle it is the way of the warrior*

!it burnsus!

[HopAlongBunny]

I've had many but one stands out.

Bridge battle; got pav arbs, ms, feudal spears/swords and a decent general...how can I lose?

The attacker is 2 RK's and a pile of garbage.

The enemy commander charges across the bridge with the other royal in tow; the supporting cast takes its time. My spear unit vapourizes, the militia sergeant sent to engage the royal starts to run; the arbs start to run...shortly the entire army is running for the exits

All I can say in my defence is...it was a short bridge

[PershsNhpios]

My my! This thread would inspire my to take up my Turk Campaign again - had I not deleted it!

I had little idea how commonly defeat was suffered.. I thought I was the only one!

And I have had many... Mostly caused by generals who refuse to die.

My worst defeat was in my fourth game or so, when my crusade to Lithuania was defeated, with two of three heirs lost, and as a result my (3)influence King suffered a civil war in his four provinces.
Yes, the larger-scale consequences were far more traumatic than watching pixels faint on the screen!

[Vladimir]

Some defeats are worth it. For example: Loosing Kazar, let the Mongols have it. There’s only the small matter of defeating the maxed out garrison in the fully upgraded citadel.

[caravel]

I've had many but one stands out.

Bridge battle; got pav arbs, ms, feudal spears/swords and a decent general...how can I lose?

The attacker is 2 RK's and a pile of garbage.

The enemy commander charges across the bridge with the other royal in tow; the supporting cast takes its time. My spear unit vapourizes, the militia sergeant sent to engage the royal starts to run; the arbs start to run...shortly the entire army is running for the exits

All I can say in my defence is...it was a short bridge

You've reminded me of a disastrous bridge battle I fought yesterday in STW. I had one unit of Yari Samurai in front of the bridge, two units of Teppo (one of these being my 4 star general) and one unit of Cavalry archers, down to about 7 or 8 men. The enemy comprised of two battered units of Yari Cavalry and two units of archers, one at about half strength and the other at almost full strength. I clicked to start the battle then watched as the enemy approached. On panning back to the position of my forces, I found that the Yari Samurai defending the bridge had taken it upon themselves to move further back to the left of my Teppo... dooming us all...

The Yari cavalry stormed across the bridge straight into my general's Teppo unit (killing him) and proceeded to rout the whole lot. The YS must have "thought" they were either intersecting with another unit or too close to the bridge, though I didn't think they were.

[gollum]

The Yari cavalry stormed across the bridge straight into my general's Teppo unit (killing him) and proceeded to rout the whole lot. The YS must have "thought" they were either intersecting with another unit or too close to the bridge, though I didn't think they were.

!it burnsus!

[caravel]

I remember throwing my hands up and exclaiming: "YOU FOOLS, YOU'VE KILLED US ALL!".

That wouldn't be the first occasion. It's usually after those drink fuelled battles where you're sure you can just about pull off that desperate uphill cavalry charge into the woods... only to be dispatched by one or two units of polearms/axes (with plenty of those little flags per unit).

[jadast]

I just started a Danish campaign and invaded Sweeden. The numbers were about equal. Sweedn had 4 Vikings, 1 spear, 1 archer, 2 Royal Knights. I had 4 Vikings, 1 spear, 2 Royal Knights. They charged over the hill and my army disappeared in front of my eyes. I counter attacked with my royals but to no avail. I left Sweeden with a new king, 40 Vikings, and 1 spear ( 1 man not 1 unit).

Next time I'll go back with a 2 to 1 advantage. If I can keep my kingdom that long.

[gollum]

That wouldn't be the first occasion. It's usually after those drink fuelled battles where you're sure you can just about pull off that desperate uphill cavalry charge into the woods... only to be dispatched by one or two units of polearms/axes (with plenty of those little flags per unit)

Who was more drunk then? The commander or the troops?

!it burnsus!

[drone]

I just started a Danish campaign and invaded Sweeden. The numbers were about equal. Sweedn had 4 Vikings, 1 spear, 1 archer, 2 Royal Knights. I had 4 Vikings, 1 spear, 2 Royal Knights. They charged over the hill and my army disappeared in front of my eyes. I counter attacked with my royals but to no avail. I left Sweeden with a new king, 40 Vikings, and 1 spear ( 1 man not 1 unit).

Next time I'll go back with a 2 to 1 advantage. If I can keep my kingdom that long.

Ouch. First MTW game I ever played, I played the Danes in Early (pre-VI). Things were going fine, found out Vikings rock, united Scandinavia, kicked the HRE around a little. Then I got the grandiose idea that Novgorod was easy pickings. That is when I learned about command stars.

[Geezer57]

I had one recently in a XL 2.1 Seljuk campaign: the Golden Horde had been decapitated and gone Rebel, with massive stacks (almost 14k) in Khazar. I had an elite force (about 3600) in Georgia, under a 7* general, and thought it would be fun to bloody their noses - maybe even gain a nice province if things went really well.



Long story short, I totally dominated the early going as long as my missile supply kept up (archers withdrawing as soon as arrows exhausted), killing/routing large numbers of Mongol Heavy Cavalry and Mongol Warriors. But after my reserves of Futuwwa ran out, the tide started turning. I retreated in stages to a nice slight hill, under constant pressure, but there were simply no good wooded areas to hide in from the Mongol Horse Archers, etc. I'd win every melee, but the longer my forces stayed in place, the greater the attrition from the arrow storm became. Finally, with even melee reserves growing short, I decided to withdraw what forces I could (save that good General!) for a rematch later on. After all, the Rebels weren't going anywhere, nor would they be able to rebuilt troops with their negligible income.

The final tally:


Killed a little under 7k, lost a few less than 2k: not the greatest kill ratio, but still heavily in my favor. And I still have the core of my army, so that with quivers refilled we can bloody them up some more next time! Revenge will be sweet...

[Scurvy]

Once on MP I was winning quite easily, so sent Naptha into centre of line for fun, in one volley they killed my General and chain routed my entire army....

I think i have the replay somewhere...

[gollum]

Once on MP I was winning quite easily, so sent Naptha into centre of line for fun, in one volley they killed my General and chain routed my entire army....

- priceless - nothing better than mp blunders

!it burnsus!

[Fagar]

I am not exactly sure why but for me most of my defeats seem to come at the hands of Boyars.
I deal with massive valour kata's in the hands of Byzzie uber generals. I can pick the Golden Horde to pieces with tactical fighting.
However get me into a situation where there is 3 or more units of Boyars and I am bound to feel some pain.

Most recently I had an army invade Finland, well balanced with a good mix of Fuedal Sargeants, Fuedal Knights and FMAA and a spattering of archers.
I went in with a full stack, 4 star general no vices against 3 star general with four units of Boyars and the rest basically woodsmen and archers and got belted.
Left the field of battle with fewer than 200 men and a good runner trait.
Boyars are definately my nemesis no matter how I try to modify my tactics they towel me up

[Geezer57]

most of my defeats seem to come at the hands of Boyars

On defense, you can often defeat missile-heavy enemy armies by sheltering in wooded areas. It takes forever (until they run out of ammo), but frequently works. Better and easier to have missile parity or superiority for your own side.

On offense, you almost have to have missile superiority for your side, as the "spread out and sweep" approach that many folks take against Horse Archers won't work with Boyars - their melee strengths are too great, and they can break portions of your line.

Good foot missile troops, backed up with anti-cavalry melee units, will outshoot even the heaviest horse archer type units (Steppe Heavies, Boyars, etc.). Just remember to bring enough to finish the job.

Another option is to have fast horse archers in your roster, but that takes lots of finesse to pull off. Your troops are not as well armored as the Boyars, so you need to use units in pairs - with one pulling out of enemy range as the other snipes at the heavies, forcing them to change facing, move, etc.

[Fagar]

Cheers for the advice Geezer;

Most of those ideas I already implement but I suspect as you said a large amount of finesse is needed and I have a tendency to get impatient and want to go in for the quick kill, then get punished for it.
Next time I am in a stoush involving Boyars I will attempt to show some more respect and up the missile % in my own army.