Immigration Question

[Alexanderofmacedon]

What do you think that immigrant reform should look like that will help assimilate the migrant workers? For an example use Mexican migrant workers in Texas.

Think education etc.

I have a viewpoint, but it's not set in stone so I wanted to see if anyone brings up some good points.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I would not like to assimilate migrant workers.

I would like to assimilate new immigrants.


What I will get is assimilated migrants along with immigrants forcing me to change to their approach.


Bitter, party of one, your table is READY!

[Fragony]

Up to the immigrant I don't believe in assimilation policy scrap it, nice if you integrate but as long as you can provide for yourself I couldn't care less what you eat for dinner. Works both ways though.

[Beren Son Of Barahi]

I think for the most part; illegal immigrants have worked very well for the US, it provides cheap workers without any sort of burden on the tax payer (in theory). However i think that might be changing and now they are seen as a tax burden (car accidents, medical expenses, no tax income ect), in other words people who are not paying tax are needing services.

It's hard to change as 1/2 of cali is latino and the other southern states pretty much rely of them to hold the low pay jobs. i think a more open and transparent visa program might help, you don't want to force people to assimilate, you want them to become paying and well defined parts of the tax system.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

I'm not talking about illegal immigrants. They are ILLEGAL and are that for a reason. I'm talking about legal immigrants who do not have simple English skills, etc.

[JAG]

The free'er the borders the free'er the people.

[CountArach]

People should feel no pressure to become like everyone around them, so i couldn't care less if they are assimilated or not, just as long as they are willing to follow the laws of the land.

[Beren Son Of Barahi]

I'm not talking about illegal immigrants. They are ILLEGAL and are that for a reason. I'm talking about legal immigrants who do not have simple English skills, etc.

well i really don't see what your asking about then; if they are legal then they can do as they please. keeping their own culture and identity is part of being a people. give them a reason to want to be citizens and belong, don't force them to learn english.

i would find it much more interesting to hear peoples thoughts of the legal/illegal migrant issue then anything else. if illegals are so bad for the USA maybe someone should lock the gate

[KukriKhan]

For the sake of conversation, what if we turn the question on it's head, and look at the situation from the immigrants' point-of-view?:

To: Western European Former Colonial Powers
From: Your Former Colonies

Dear Most Esteemed Former Masters:

You owe us.

Were it not for the actions of your grandfathers & great-grandfathers, you would not enjoy the standard of living and political freedom you exercise today. Your very middle-class existence is due to last century's exploitation and theft of our labour and resources.

You came to our land, didn't speak our language, worship our gods, or follow our cultural ways. You imposed violence on the inhabitants to get what you wanted - all the very things that you now complain that our grandsons and great-grandsons are perpetrating upon you in your land.

Your visit to our land lasted over 100 years. Should our visit to your land not last as long?

We point out that during your visit, we allowed you to be Managers, Overseers, Owners, Directors, and titles of that sort. During our visit, we seek merely to clean your toilets, cook your food, wash your vehicles, raise your children, and enhance your economy with our cheap labour.

Kindly show some respect.

Sincerely,

Africa, Asia and South America, Inc.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

That was the past. This is now.

[KukriKhan]

That was the past. This is now.

With respect: that is always the answer. "It was my great-grampa, not me!", or "It wasn't even my Grampa. It was my neighbor's Grampa, the scoundrel!" "We're more enlightened nowadays, and would never do that 'colony' thing again."

The other side would say: "You don't any longer need to. The advances wroght to your country and it's people, due to the exploitation of my country and it's people, elevated you and your descendants to such a high level (compared to the rest of the world) that you can afford to sit back and muse on the higher things in life like philosophy, the existance of god, the origin of the universe, the best political system, the cup size of Ms. Spears' brassiere."

[KukriKhan]

... Europe &tc

Dearest Majesties:

Indeed. Ever the apt and eager-to-please pupils, it can be said that we learned well from your example.

Regards,

AA&SA, LLC

[Alexanderofmacedon]

Rory, as much as I am leaning on your side about immigration, I can't agree. What the west did was nothing less than exploitation for centuries. To believe you owe them nothing for what your ancestors did is one thing, but to truthfully deny your nation's past is another, which crosses the line in my book.

[rory_20_uk]

Dear Former colonists.

Owe you? Let's review:

Most of your infrastructure we built

We deposed your previous rulers. Let's not get overly rosy eyed about them. Almost without exception they were despots or autocrats. Some of these kingdoms were won in battle in the same way the previous leaders had become king, others were offered to take flight to the West as no longer could their treatment be countenanced. Were the Zulus really peace loving?

You fought and gained freedom. You have then in many cases indulged in an orgy of violence and corruption not seen since... well, before we got there. Should we not fight as hard to keep you out as you fought to get us out?

We managed the railways we built, the roads we build, the schools we built, the hospitals we built the law we imposed (or did you like the Tugees?) You didn't want us, and got rid of us as soon as you could, as apparently genocide, starvation and corruption is only a problem if the person is white.

You were not treated well all that time ago. Since we've addressed how badly you are currently treated by a nice indigenous person, I'd also like to mention how badly the white working class were treated in Europe; similarly occupation of Caribbean islands had death rates that approached 100% of the soldiers who had no vote and no right to leave either. Treating people like scum was truly colour blind: the extremely small minority of rich did it to all - as did the occasional rich former leader.

We don't really need you. You fill in between the time the unemployed masses here are forced to do anything.

You have the independence you so ardently fought for. Rot in it.



Yours,


Europe &tc

[CountArach]

We deposed your previous rulers. Let's not get overly rosy eyed about them. Almost without exception they were despots or autocrats. Some of these kingdoms were won in battle in the same way the previous leaders had become king, others were offered to take flight to the West as no longer could their treatment be countenanced. Were the Zulus really peace loving?

What gave the British the right to topple these people? All they did was replace one oppressive regime with a foreign oppressive regime...

You fought and gained freedom. You have then in many cases indulged in an orgy of violence and corruption not seen since... well, before we got there. Should we not fight as hard to keep you out as you fought to get us out?

We managed the railways we built, the roads we build, the schools we built, the hospitals we built the law we imposed (or did you like the Tugees?) You didn't want us, and got rid of us as soon as you could, as apparently genocide, starvation and corruption is only a problem if the person is white.

Let's think - why did the people revolt in the first place? Could it be because they had *shock and horro* legitimate grievances!? Paternalism is dead. Get over it.

[Kralizec]

He's got a point though, and a good one. The victims of the original colonisation process are all dead. Current generations in these countries may despice the practice of those days, but any claim that they'd been materially better off if colonisation had never happened is unadulterated BS. The difference would be that the vast majority in those countries wouldn't be able to write "reparations" with a paper and a pen and would have even less cause to demand them.

EDIT:
before any mentions it, I'm aware of recent Dutch history in regards to Indonesia and I think it's a disgrace. In my opinion any victims of that period who are still alive ought to get compensation and fast, unlike what our government seems to think. The above bit is in regards to the colonisation and subsequent administration itself, not to misguided 20th century attempts to hold on to the Dutch Indies, Indochina or whatnot.

[KukriKhan]

... but any claim that they'd been materially better off if colonisation had never happened is unadulterated BS

That's actually speculation, my friend. It can also be successfully argued that the descendants of the western European colonizers have stood to very materially, and substantially, gained an advantage economically from the exploitation of their ancestors.

Nobody here on the org boards "feels" rich, or like some oppressive ogre. But the mere fact that we here all have gaming-capable computers, and the implied wealth and leisure time available that that ownership implies - suggests a rather massive middle-class of europeans, north americans and australians that didn't exist 100 years ago - and still doesn't in the former colonies.

In the race to middle class comfort and security, we had a 50-metre lead.

Just saying.

[Sarmatian]

He's got a point though, and a good one. The victims of the original colonisation process are all dead. Current generations in these countries may despice the practice of those days, but any claim that they'd been materially better off if colonisation had never happened is unadulterated BS. The difference would be that the vast majority in those countries wouldn't be able to write "reparations" with a paper and a pen and would have even less cause to demand them.

If I had a rich peace of land and I'm not growing anything on it that doesn't mean that you are entitled to take it and make millions of it. And it's especially bad and insulting if after making millions, you tell that it's fair because you gave me something worth 10 dollars.

And the story that it was done in the name of civilization and progress is total BS. Any benefit to the natives was purely coincidental. Really, those Chinese and Indians needed Europeans to teach them culture