Immigration Question

[Fragony]

@Fragony: Uh..... what?

Are you saying that the dutch are poor workers?

[HoreTore]

Are you saying that the dutch are poor workers?

No....? Are you?

[rory_20_uk]

Newsflash - we've already got them! Sort of a "congratulations for getting in. Here's some free cash. Please enjoy your community centre and feel free to complain it's not big enough. Have as many kids as you want as we'll pay you per child with a bigger house and a higher grant. If there's any forms you don't understand please tell us - we will then need to get all leaflets and a translator to help with all interactions."

Reduce the incentives to come here, less will come. Reduce the ability to not bother learning English and more will try.

[HoreTore]

Reduce the incentives to come here, less will come. Reduce the ability to not bother learning English and more will try.

You'd have to work really hard to make it worse to live in Britain than in countries with half a century of civil war....

[Fragony]

No....? Are you?

So you do think we are poor workers

[rory_20_uk]

You'd have to work really hard to make it worse to live in Britain than in countries with half a century of civil war....

Not true.

Same story when running away from a hungry lion: you don't need to run faster than the lion, merely faster than others running away.

So, we don't need to compete with e.g. Somalia, merely make it that considering the hastle to get here and what you get whilst here, other places are a better option.

[Husar]

The economic situation will sort things out. Right now, they are doing jobs we don't want to do. Soon, they will be competing for jobs with desperate citizens and the opportunities will diminish greatly.

And the wages will go down as well I guess, as usual when there is more competition.

[HoreTore]

And the wages will go down as well I guess, as usual when there is more competition.

Wages don't go down; they just don't go up as much.

[Strike For The South]

Frankly I don't care. The ones who stay want to be here and the migrants ebb and flow. What I am worried about is the lawless Texas-Mexico border. Thats the real problem here. The drug trade has a monopoly in cities like Laredeo in Eagle pass but the idoits in Washington are worried about Jose making a fence.

Im never allowing any female relative down there without an escort. These drug runners have paralyzed Northern Mexico and are creeping into Texas and the rangers don't like that

[CountArach]

Yes, you can come over and not integrate, but there's no financial or community support unless you do.

Why should that be the case? I can't see any logical reason why the language a person chooses to speak should impact on whether they get unemployment benefits or not.

So you want them to all speak English, yet you are unwilling to teach them? How is that at all going to work with refugees who have no time or ability to prepare? If someone is escaping poverty in osme third world hole, its all well and good to say "Come over here prepared to speak our language", but THERE IS NO WAY FOR THEM TO LEARN.

[Husar]

Wages don't go down; they just don't go up as much.

I think that depends on the job, my current wage is lower than the minimum wage in many countries and when I was looking for a job there seemed to be a whole lot of competitors and the money I get now was the highest wage offered to me. I was just looking for a part-time student job but the requirements seemed very high and the wages very low, the competition huge. I got my job through a friend in the end...

[Alexanderofmacedon]

Why should that be the case? I can't see any logical reason why the language a person chooses to speak should impact on whether they get unemployment benefits or not.

So you want them to all speak English, yet you are unwilling to teach them? How is that at all going to work with refugees who have no time or ability to prepare? If someone is escaping poverty in osme third world hole, its all well and good to say "Come over here prepared to speak our language", but THERE IS NO WAY FOR THEM TO LEARN.

Rory did mention giving them courses to learn English.

In cases of Europe immigration I have the same feelings that Fragony and Rory have, but I'm more angry with the government for not doing anything about it. Sure a poorer immigrant class is getting a LOT of easy benefits, but it's in a persons nature to get the best they can. The government should put a stop to it.

[CountArach]

Rory did mention giving them courses to learn English.

Then I misread his post. My bad...

In cases of Europe immigration I have the same feelings that Fragony and Rory have, but I'm more angry with the government for not doing anything about it. Sure a poorer immigrant class is getting a LOT of easy benefits, but it's in a persons nature to get the best they can. The government should put a stop to it.

Or we could help them out of just being an underclass... who knows? - they might actually become a functioning member of society!

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Or we could help them out of just being an underclass... who knows? - they might actually become a functioning member of society!

But why should we accept them into our country just so we can spend money making them functioning members of society? Why not, instead, get immigrants with qualifications and just teach them English/German/Norwegian?

[Sarmatian]

But why should we accept them into our country just so we can spend money making them functioning members of society? Why not, instead, get immigrants with qualifications and just teach them English/German/Norwegian?

Because for some jobs you don't need qualifications. If you think that a university professor from eastern Europe is going to come to Germany to clean toilets, you're really in for a surprise. For cleaning toilets, you'll get a guy who doesn't have any qualifications. From my short experience in the US, I got the impression that no one had any problem with immigrants as long as they took jobs Americans didn't want. But, when they started taking jobs Americans actually do want, there's an immigration problem.

But, you guys are all forgetting that you need increasing population to keep the economy going. I remember reading that in the next several decades, EU is going to be short of about 20 million workers. So, like it or not, EU will have to import workers or the economy will suffer. I don't have the numbers for US, but I'm sure it's a similar situation...

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Because for some jobs you don't need qualifications. If you think that a university professor from eastern Europe is going to come to Germany to clean toilets, you're really in for a surprise. For cleaning toilets, you'll get a guy who doesn't have any qualifications. From my short experience in the US, I got the impression that no one had any problem with immigrants as long as they took jobs Americans didn't want. But, when they started taking jobs Americans actually do want, there's an immigration problem.

Indeed. But in this scenario, we should take exactly what we need, and those who do come should have a knowledge of our language. This doesn't mean they have to speak it at home, but they have to know what I'm telling them. Say a grace period of a year to get a moderate grasp of the language, and if they can't meet it...

[Incongruous]

Why should that be the case? I can't see any logical reason why the language a person chooses to speak should impact on whether they get unemployment benefits or not.

Think a little harder about it, its not that they do not deserve unemployment benefit or that one truly wishes to deprive them of it based uppn their ethnicity. However knowing the language of the country you decide to live in is a must, otherwise we get confusion and the breakdown of society, not a good thing.

You must learn, and the best incentive is the possible complete loss of financial security, with that issue in the way of you and your doll out, you are gonna start tackling it fairly quickly before it becomes a problem.

Problem solved!

[Fragony]

Then I misread his post. My bad...

Or we could help them out of just being an underclass... who knows? - they might actually become a functioning member of society!

There is absolutily no desire to become a functioning member of society, why even try when you can just sit back and have honour in the local teahouse. It's all there for the taking but there are no takers.

[Sarmatian]

Indeed. But in this scenario, we should take exactly what we need, and those who do come should have a knowledge of our language. This doesn't mean they have to speak it at home, but they have to know what I'm telling them. Say a grace period of a year to get a moderate grasp of the language, and if they can't meet it...

What's deal here? Assimilation or how good a job they're doing? If it some menial, repetitive job, like bring Box A to the place B, their command of the language needn't be anything special.

If it's some job you need qualifications for, like some managerial job - well, in that case those who don't speak the language (or are unwilling to learn it) generally won't be interested in the job, because in order to do that job well, quality of communication needs to be high.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

What's deal here? Assimilation or how good a job they're doing? If it some menial, repetitive job, like bring Box A to the place B, their command of the language needn't be anything special.

If there is any chance of them staying in the country permanently, then yes, they need to have a grasp of the language, no ifs, ands, or buts.

[Fragony]

If there is any chance of them staying in the country permanently, then yes, they need to have a grasp of the language, no ifs, ands, or buts.

Mwah if it isn't a job requirement. If someone has made absolutely no effort out of being of any use then no welfare check when unemployed. Lefties aren't equiped to understand that when all your daddy wanted was an additional tit on his goat it's hard to be impressed by the poverty that is having electricity running water and seperate rooms for the kids and only one holiday a year, might be poverty to them and their comrades but immigrants are from the big tall.

[KukriKhan]

... but immigrants are from the big tall.

I think I understand the rest of the post, but that part has me confused. What is "the big tall"?

[Fragony]

I think I understand the rest of the post, but that part has me confused. What is "the big tall"?

That would be the world, a big place that supposedly covers even more landmass then the channels of southern-Amsterdam.

[rory_20_uk]

Why should that be the case? I can't see any logical reason why the language a person chooses to speak should impact on whether they get unemployment benefits or not.

So you want them to all speak English, yet you are unwilling to teach them? How is that at all going to work with refugees who have no time or ability to prepare? If someone is escaping poverty in osme third world hole, its all well and good to say "Come over here prepared to speak our language", but THERE IS NO WAY FOR THEM TO LEARN.

I did not mean that employment benefits are only paid to persons who speak a certain language, merely that all forms are en English and the onus is on the applicant to fill them in.

It has already been pointed out that I mentioned English classes. And the UK is one of the most widely spoken languages in the world.

Africa, jealously keeping it's title as world's biggest hole has most countries that either speak English or French as a second or first language.

The UK ISN'T here to help those in some 3rd world hole. Finally the government is waking up to the idea that we select the best to come in. If persons have no economic value then go elsewhere. If you speak the language and have a skill that is needed then yes, you're welcome, and after a number of years of good service you can get permanent residency.

[Husar]

And the UK is one of the most widely spoken languages in the world.

I have never heard anyone speaking the UK.

But yes, it makes sense to learn the language of the people you live with and meet every day.

[Sarmatian]

If there is any chance of them staying in the country permanently, then yes, they need to have a grasp of the language, no ifs, ands, or buts.

What about democracy, human right...? You can't force people to speak a language, you can't force them to adapt to certain culture and change their own customs and traditions...

[rory_20_uk]

Not force. But not lift a finger to help. And if their culture causes a breach of the peace, causes offence to one's neighbours then these activities should be restricted by the police.

E.G. this discussion board is in English. All people are welcome - as long as they can read and write English.

Personally I think if you want to emigrate to a country you should at the very least not cause offence to the local culture - even at the expense of your own: I can't, nor do I feel I should be able to walk in Mecca enjoying a bottle of whisky along with a pork sandwich.

[Sarmatian]

Not force. But not lift a finger to help. And if their culture causes a breach of the peace, causes offence to one's neighbours then these activities should be restricted by the police.

E.G. this discussion board is in English. All people are welcome - as long as they can read and write English.

It's the same thing - if Immigrant A speaks the language and is assimilated he gets every right there is, but Immigrant B doesn't get anything because he isn't assimilated or doesn't speak the language.

If I move to England and start to work there, I'd be paying taxes the same as you. You can't take away my rights, either fully or partially just because my neighbour might be offended because I cheered for Serbia in England-Serbia footy match...

[rory_20_uk]

That would be for the courts to decide. In that case, probably not. If someone decided to slaughter a pig in their front garden as that what is done at home, then they would be breaching the law. If someone decides to give their children knives as that's what happens at home again they're breaching the law.

Immigrants that can't speaks the language shouldn't have the chance to start working. If you're not in the EU you have far less rights than I do. Merely paying taxes doesn't make you a subject of this country.

People are very quick to bang on about their "rights", few seem as interested in their responsibilities. I would say that integrating is a responsibility - else why are you here? if a economic migrant, then don't be surprised if you're removed when you're no longer needed.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

What about democracy, human right...? You can't force people to speak a language, you can't force them to adapt to certain culture and change their own customs and traditions...

You are correct - we can't force them. But we can deny them entry if they refuse.