a bit OT, 3rd Century battlefield

[Teutobod II]

!!! 3rd century Roman battlefield discovered near Northeim, Northern Germany (far West of the Rhein) !!

It says in the article that so far around 600 weapons and pieces were unearthed which probably proves that Rome did not completely ignore inteernal Germanic afairs but instead still had interests there.

in German
http://www.abendblatt.de/daten/2008/12/11/988522.html

[Gleemonex]

Which article?

[Ca Putt]

damn i was just about to post this :D oh well, just read it in my local newspaper. they will show off their findings on monday.

[Ignopotens]

Here's a link to an article about it in English, with a pic of what looks like a Roman dagger

http://www.thelocal.de/sci-tech/20081211-16075.html

[Ca Putt]

wow that indeed is a very well preserved dagger!
In our local newspaper they just had some guys in LS.

[L.C.Cinna]

The dagger is not connected with this excavation. It's a mid/late 1st century dagger found elsewhere. Can't wait for a more exact dating. the most interesting thing is that the battlefield is quite far away from the limes, meaning the Romans in the 3rd century penetrated deeper into Germanic territory than we've thought before. Can'T wait till monday

[schlappi]

http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/m...595919,00.html

Scientists discovered a large roman battlefield in the "Kalefeld", lower saxony, with over 600 roman artifacts recovered so far, about 200 years after the battle of teutoburg forest, which was assumed to mark the end of campaining in germany for the roman empire.

I thought some of you might find this interesting.

Edit: Sorry, wrong thread, could someone please move this? Thanks

[Detlef]

Not really the EB timeframe but still I´d like to share it....

http://www.thelocal.de/sci-tech/20081211-16075.html

Archaeologists have discovered an ancient roman battlefield from the third century near Göttingen that will rewrite history, Lower Saxony's department for preservation of historical monuments said on Thursday.

“The find can be dated to the third century and will definitely change the historical perception of that time,” Dr. Henning Haßmann told The Local.

The amazing discovery allows an insight in what must have been a dramatic battle between Romans and Germanic tribes. “The find indicates a massive Roman military presence,” Haßmann said.

So far historians believed that the battle of the Teutoburg Forest, which took place in 9 AD, resulted in the Roman’s Empire withdrawal from Germania without any further attempt to conquer the land beyond the Rhine River again. But the unearthing of the battleground near the village of Kalefeld proves that Rome didn't give up its expansionary ambitions until much later than previously assumed.

“It is pretty normal to find evidence of Roman culture all over even up in Scotland, but a find like this in northern Germany is really amazing,” Haßmann said. “And it's spectacularly well preserved.”

The dig has already brought some 600 artefacts to light during the last three months, most of them ancient weapons.

The exact location has been kept a secret so far, to keep private collectors at bay, Haßmann said. But it will be revealed on Monday by Lower Saxony's minister for science and culture, Lutz Stratmann, as well as the archaeologists that were involved in the excavation.

[MarcAurel]

Amazing, I just saw it in the (german) news. Thats really interesting and a big surprise for all historians. Thanks for posting.

[Ludens]

So far historians believed that the battle of the Teutoburg Forest, which took place in 9 AD, resulted in the Roman’s Empire withdrawal from Germania without any further attempt to conquer the land beyond the Rhine River again. But the unearthing of the battleground near the village of Kalefeld proves that Rome didn't give up its expansionary ambitions until much later than previously assumed.

This sounds rather dodgy to me. The Romans may have given up on incorporating Germany into the Empire, but that doesn't mean they left it alone. Both Tiberius and Germanicus the Younger campaigned in Germany after the defeat at Teutoburg Forest. So did Julian the Apostate three centuries later. Remember that for the Romans the objective of military action was not necessarily conquest, but submittal. They may not have intended to subjugate Germany, they simply wanted to instil respect for the Roman Empire into its inhabitants.

[Aemilius Paulus]

This sounds rather dodgy to me. The Romans may have given up on incorporating Germany into the Empire, but that doesn't mean they left it alone. Both Tiberius and Germanicus the Younger campaigned in Germany after the defeat at Teutoburg Forest. So did Julian the Apostate three centuries later. Remember that for the Romans the objective of military action was not necessarily conquest, but submittal. They may not have intended to subjugate Germany, they simply wanted to instil respect for the Roman Empire into its inhabitants.

Ludens is right. Tiberius himself stated that the purpose was to revenge for Teutoburg defeat, to show the Germans what the Romans could do, and to quote "revive the honor of the Roman arms" - his exact words. No Roman emperor after Augustus ever tried to subjugate Germania. They knew it was more than they could hold. Rhine River and the limes were a great defensible frontier, and Germania itself did not have such frontiers. All it had was endless forests, which Romans themselves would often cut down to lessen the chance of surprise attack (this behavior was observed everywhere, not just in Gaul or Germania). Defending conquered Germania would be too much for Roma.

Not only this, but Germania at that time was not such a tempting piece of real estate. British Isles had tin and other metals. Gaul had fertile land, metals, already developed Celtic civilization with numerous useful crafts, while Germania was very sparsely settled in comparison, with very few large settled communities.

[Centurion Crastinus]

Thatis really interesting. I just wish I could understand German better.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Thatis really interesting. I just wish I could understand German better.

Google Translate?

[Pontius Pilate]

Ludens is right. Tiberius himself stated that the purpose was to revenge for Teutoburg defeat, to show the Germans what the Romans could do, and to quote "revive the honor of the Roman arms" - his exact words. No Roman emperor after Augustus ever tried to subjugate Germania. They knew it was more than they could hold. Rhine River and the limes were a great defensible frontier, and Germania itself did not have such frontiers. All it had was endless forests, which Romans themselves would often cut down to lessen the chance of surprise attack (this behavior was observed everywhere, not just in Gaul or Germania). Defending conquered Germania would be too much for Roma.

Not only this, but Germania at that time was not such a tempting piece of real estate. British Isles had tin and other metals. Gaul had fertile land, metals, already developed Celtic civilization with numerous useful crafts, while Germania was very sparsely settled in comparison, with very few large settled communities.

very true. Germania had little to no resources that were vaulable to the Romans. agriculture was limited due to the extreme cold and constant attacks made any garrisons too far into the interior indefendable. the army was also incapable of holding onto such a huge area, due to limited manpower. after Augustus, or more accurately the first century AD., Rome pretty much stopped making huge territorial expansions, with some exceptions here and there. there was no were left to go, with the Partians blocking access to the east, Germania to north, and the sahara in Africa.

Google Translate?

well, online translators don't work very well from my experience. they only translate individual words not phrases in a sentence, so you might not get an accuarte translation. I don't know about google translate though.


interesting article by the way.

[Aemilius Paulus]

well, online translators don't work very well from my experience. they only translate individual words not phrases in a sentence, so you might not get an accuarte translation. I don't know about google translate though:

I've had converse experience. Google Translate can usually pick up context clues.

[Dayve]

Very much looking forward to this... make sure you post a link to what they find when they find it.

Heh, i'm looking forward to this more than i'm looking forward to Christmas. Mind you, Christmas is shit when you're 20, and being an Atheist doesn't help either.

[Narhon]

http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/m...595919,00.html

Scientists discovered a large roman battlefield in the "Kalefeld", lower saxony, with over 600 roman artifacts recovered so far, about 200 years after the battle of teutoburg forest, which was assumed to mark the end of campaining in germany for the roman empire.

I thought some of you might find this interesting.

Edit: Sorry, wrong thread, could someone please move this? Thanks

Did not the Romans conduct the occasional punitive expedition into Germany and could this be one of them.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Did not the Romans conduct the occasional punitive expedition into Germany and could this be one of them.

If the article mentioned an exact date instead of just "200 years after Varus's debacle", then it would be pretty nice.

[russia almighty]

Well, if the Romans breached into Bohemia....well, the coffers of SPQR would never be empty again.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Well, if the Romans breached into Bohemia....well, the coffers of SPQR would never be empty again.

What's so special about it?

[palmtree]

Bohemia had extensive gold deposits, pretty much all mined out by now, though I'm not sure if their existance was at all known in ancient times.

[Ca Putt]

until now they haven't said much more than in the initial statement, but they say it seems to be a VERY big battle and they think the romans won(another theory is that Germans fought against Germans with captured weapons)

[Aemilius Paulus]

(another theory is that Germans fought against Germans with captured weapons)

Much more plausible given the lack of iron and just any kind of unimprovised weapons in Germania at that time as well as the reluctance of Romans to venture into Germania, even for punitive expeditions. Romans were still afraid of ambush, and only dared to go into Germania in very large numbers, and very rarely, with more than just one legion.

[Ibrahim]

@AP: it sucks with Arabic though..

anyways, Is there any record of a roman 3rd century AD expidition? if so, it might solve the mystery of the battle.

[Ca Putt]

just read a new article about this:
battle was fought between 190 and 260 ad.
romans were approximately 1000 men
roman force included scorpions or balistas and a lot of archers(syrian?)->syrian arrowheads and heads of larger bolts were found
roman force was retreating from a skirmish, germans cut of thier path over a bank, which the romans took under fire and thus could pass through(tho they lost at least a small part of baggage)-> horseshoes were found; if the germans would have won they would have taken the metall with them

It seems to be that the romans won the battle but eventually lost their army in the dense forests of germania because there is no roman report on it and they most probably would seen to US knowing of their victory^^

[L.C.Cinna]

not necessarily. We know of several punitive expeditions into Germania in the 3rd century and the written sources never give much detail. My guess still is a detachment under Maximinus Thrax but we'll see.