The Curia

[Warluster]

Marcvs stands, a slight smile glancing throuigh the fog of his face

Legatvs Caivs, I hope in your expression of grief you do not wish death upon our great Dictator?

Marcvs face transform into a deep frown before settling back into a wall of no expression

A new Legion is very much needed, and it will be swift defense to our borders. I hope Longvs is up to the job, as one mistake up north can mean a swift end to this Senate.

With the forming of this new Legion I wonder when the Dictator will form his own legion, under his own personal command. I am sure iwth the Dictator's skills this Legion can be quite the herald to our enemies. May I ask our leader when he will form such a Legion? Or if we need a Edict for such a thing. I am sure other Senator's will agree with me that it is due time for a Imperial Legio.

I also wonder at what is our stance against the Celtic tribes of Gallica? Do we plan to massacre them like we have the others?

Marcvs looks briefly at the empty seat of the Dictator, then his eyes burrow when he looks at Blasio, wondering

[Mooks]

I 2nd the proposal on the attack on Sicily. Every year our ships get plundered by their raiders, and our people go hungry while they could have got fat on Sicilian grain.

Though if we are going to take Sicily we might as well pick up Sardinia and Corsica along with it. A tribune with 4 cohorts of normal legionnaire infantry should be enough to take both islands (maybe more for garrison).

Of course only after our northern borders are secured. Safety of Rome and the senate first.

[everyone]

Cicero rises, apparently seeming more positive than previously.

"If the soon to be recruited Legio III is to be used for defence or garrison duties, I would say that it is too small to be so. If you have read the intelligence reports from the library from a year ago, Gaulish hordes were reported to be rallying around Mediolanum, forming two large armies (OOC: 2 fullstacks, though numbers are unknown)."

"but if the legion is to be used for campaigning, perhaps Legatus Cotta's proposal that Massalia should be made a client state could require the legion, as its presence might intimidate the Massalians to capitulate. However, I fear the stone bastion that surrounds the city might hinder our troops greatly, as none of our legions, or commanders, has had experience in sieging a city with such a bastion."

Cicero suddenly remembers something

"ah yes, there is something I have a sudden urge to refer to in the senatorial library, please excuse me for a few moments, my assistant shall take down any other things which would be directed to me and I shall answer them when I return, it would not be long"

With that, Cicero promptly left the Curia.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Quintus looks some of his fellow senators and says..

Do you people even understand the difference between Massalia and Messana??
Massalia is a town west of Segesta and Messana is a town in north of Sicily.
If I would have the power of proposing legislation I would propose that we go against Messana instead of Massalia. But those islands, Corsim and Sardinia, are also good targets but in order to reach there we need to have a navy. Something we don't have at the moment!!!

Quintus sighs...

[everyone]

OOC: for RP reasons, Cicero isn't back yet

Cicero's assistant stands, however with the appearance that seems as if he would sit down immediately any moment.

"Tribunus Quintus, I assure you Tribunus Cicero understands that Massalia is the stone-walled Greek city to the northwest of Segesta, wheras Messana is the Mamertine settlement on Sicilia; therefore he assumed that Legatus Cotta's proposed edict referred to taking the city northwest of Segesta, rather than the one on Sicilia. As for the thing about the islands and navies, I shall wait for Tribunus Cicero to return to answer it, because I don't think my opinion could represent his"

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Quintus responds..

I was talking about Avlvs Aemilivs Mamercvs who said

Very well proposal. Why should we leave Sicilia to those Carthagians?

And that was response to Legatus Cotta's Edict proposal

EDICT 3.2-Extract an alliance from the city of Massilia.

I would suggest that Avlvs should check his maps.

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

Tiberius chuckles to himself, imbeciles! He almost wished Quintus had let them continue to gaggle like women at the wash. He forces himself to stifle his good humor and take a commanding tone.

"Ave Senatores! Verily, honored Tribunus Quintus is correct. Massalia and Messana are two different places; but fear not! I concur with those senatores who suggest we expand not into the barbarous north, where we already have two legions garrisoned for defense; but rather southwardly into Sicilia! We've enough small water craft to ferry our armies across the straights of Messana and would not need to construct heavier flotillas.

"As I have stated on multiple occasions the Carthaginians are our first and foremost threat. They currently plot our own demise and would not hesitate to put the sword to our soft underbelly should the first opportunity arise! Let us send the mighty new Legio III to hone its blade and bloody its hands on the walls of Messana! In fact, to show my stalwartness and my own faith in this plan, I offer myself as a Tribune in this new Legio III. I shall take part of the lead in the destruction of our enemies!

"Now, as for the isles of Corsica and Sardinia, let us fear them not. They've not enough of a garrison let alone a nearby fleet to transfer them to be any sort of raiding party or reinforcement to a larger army. Let those rocky fortresses stand alone in the sea; it shall be their own undoing, isolated as such. After we focus our spear points on the entire island of Sicilia, then, we can further our borders and extend our reach into the deepest parts of the Mediterranean by taking the Occidental isles. When that is completed, our armies and possessions will form an arrow head with the tip being pointed at the heart of Carthago itself!

Tiberius' voice rings clearly as he crescendos for dramatic effect.

"Of course, senatores, I cannot propose this formally; but let it be on the record that I support the motions of those brave Senatores who can forsee the future of Roma surpassing that of our purported "allies" to the south and west."

[SwissBarbar]

Calm down Quintus, my friend, my knowledge of my maps is profound, he mumbled the name, so I did not understand it right Avlvs smiled. No, seriously, I missunderstood (OOC: i read to fast...). Adressing all the senatores: Senatores, my mistake, please forgive me.


And with a more serious countenance, he said

In fact its my oppinion to go south anyways, but we should first attack sicilia, with that we would cut the supply line from Carthage to Sardinia and Corsim. And as Quintus noted, we'd have to build expensive ships to get there. The carthagian navy is far better than any other's in the world. If we beat them, them on land.

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

Tiberius stand and applauds Tribunus Aulus

"Very well said, my friend. Honor to you, who so humbly and openly admits a mistake, even one so simple. Surely, your character is made stronger in the eyes of these men. As for encouraging an expedition to the south, I also commend your wisdom and vision. Truly, Roma has no better a Senator than yourself.

Raising an arm towards Aulus, Tiberius continues,

"Honored Gentlemen, we could learn much from a man such as this."

[Mjolnir]

Will the Roman Republic then leave a task half done? I say no. Let us strike north and finish off the Celts south of the mountains. Does one leave a wound to fester? Even now Celtic raiding parties cross into Roman territory without regard for our borders to plunder villages and towns. Let us take Mediolanum and Patavium before we even speak of Sicilia again. The installation of a pro-Roman government (OOC: type 4 government) in Massalia would would a wise decision as well. To the north Senators, to the north!

[/Bean\]

Cotta, having listened with growing impatience to the recent senator remarks, stands again.

Senators, I fully agree with Caivs Aemilivs Mamercvs; how can we think of moving south with one legion when we have yet to finish in the north? I absolutely loathe to see our glorious republic prepare to purposefully and effectively stab our friends in the back! Is that what we have become so quickly? You talk of Sicily as if it were Roman by birthright. Under durress of war this pact may have been done, but how dare we not only break it once the war is finished, but we attack our once time allies. Shame on you, Senators of the Republic.

I fear that Avlvs Aemilivs Mamercvs may still have much to learn should he think that we can tackle the greatest naval power this world has to offer without a single ship and hope to win. Superior on land our armies may be. However, the Carthaginians employ vast swathes of mercenaries, horsemen and giant beasts. They are one of the greatest powers in the Mediterrainian. An attack on them now would be fruitless, unjustified, and shortsited.

Once more, I also fear my recent edict to extract an alliance with the grand city of Massilia may have been misinterprited, and has sparked off this terrible discussion on war in Italy. Rome is not safe, Senators. I feel almost ashamed that you believe we are impossible to attack. Have you all forgotten our troubles so far? How close we have come to extinction? I do not deny the power of our armies or the potential of our republic. But daily we face old threats from many who want to see us live no longer. We have many enemies, gentlemen. Let us not create more than we need.

To justify my recent proposal, I say that, with the imminent capture of Patavium, the north of Italia will be stronger. With the protection of the western passes through the Alps protected by an allied city state, we are almost completed safe by land. Only with the eventual capture of the Insurgbres (sp.) in Mediolanium will we be safe.

I beseech you, Senators. Strike where we can, fight on our terms where we are strong. North, not south.

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

I abhor you, Senators. Strike where we can, fight on our terms where we are strong. North, not south.

Tiberius abruptly stands up, barely allowing Legatus Cotta to finish his last sentence, his anger seething to a near boil.

"Legatus Cotta, your work in the legions is most apprecited, and your experience is duly noted here amongst your peers; however to state that you "abhor" us? Your fellow citizens? To so casually bare your hatred for us in the open is reprehensible! While our discussions may be heated, there is no love lost amongst us. Why do you cause such unnecessary discord?

"Senior Senatores, I implore you to shame this man with a nota censoria! Let the people know who is for us and who is against us. His words cannot be taken back! He has spoken his mind and his heart for all to hear! Who but we can right this wrong? I had heard told that those of the Gens Aurelia were xenophobes; but to hear that they hate their own kind fills me with a righteous and burning anger!

Tribunus Tiberius Claudius Marcellus sits down, glowering at Legatus Caius Aurelius Cotta in absolute disgust.

[/Bean\]

Cotta stands, fists clenching and unclenching by his side.

And you are you to insult me so, Tribune. Never before has such insolence been spoken in these chambers. I appeal to my fellow senators sense, to their humanity and their civil nature. Man should not stab man in the back, when we once not very long ago shared wine and stories with them. You, you are not worthy of your stance in this republic should you question my right to ask justice and good faith upon our fellow man. War with Carthage? I will have no part in it before Carthage itself declares it's detest for our country.

[SwissBarbar]

[I]
I fear that Avlvs Aemilivs Mamercvs may still have much to learn should he think that we can tackle the greatest naval power this world has to offer without a single ship and hope to win. Superior on land our armies may be. However, the Carthaginians employ vast swathes of mercenaries, horsemen and giant beasts. They are one of the greatest powers in the Mediterrainian. An attack on them now would be fruitless, unjustified, and shortsited.

You may be right. I am young and I am eager to learn from you and any older and wiser senator. I have no experience, that is true. But how shall I learn, if not by bringing forward my thoughts, so wiser senators can think about them and correct brash youths as I am?

Now hear, what my thoughts areand think about it without prejudice, before you answer, dear senatores. Would 1 oder maybe 2 legions not be more than enough to hold the Celts back? You see, the league of the Arverni and the league of the Aedui are not best friends. If we attack - well, "free" - Celtic cities, we may unify them. Let them kill each other if they want to.

You are right, friend Cotta, Carthage is strong. But what can they do with their ships, block our ports? This would be not half as effectively as us taking their cities. Could we not establish a strong legion and march south, would that not be enough to beat those Carthaginians IN SICILY - please note, that I do not say, we should march towards the other islands or even Africa. That'd be the case we needed ships for. Its too early for that.

But that is not even the point. I would like to bring forward another sentiment. Messana and especially Syrakousai are very rich cities, and are not under Carthaginian command, are they? Maybe I really have to check the actual maps. Anyhow, Syrakousai is Greek and supports our Greek enemies. If we took those cities - we have good reason - they would be ours by right, not the Carthaginians. We would not start a war with them. If they don't give us the right to extinguish our adversaries, then let them attack. Then they would have started the war, and show, that they never were our friends.


With that, Avlvs sat himself and listened what would be responded.

[/Bean\]

Avlvs, I doubt not your desire to learn nor your ability in your character. I am a strong supporter of the Aemilii and have expressed this. I admire your courage to speak out despite your inexperience.

As for the power of the Carthaginian navy, I feel you highly underestimate its power.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

OOC: We have to think about this logically, rather than in the limits of the game engine. Having a large navy would mean constant raids on Italic shores, the ability to vastly outmanouver our land armies both in speed and agility. The navies are vastly understated in Rome, though that of course is no ones fault but CA.

As for your offer of attacking the other cities of Sicily, it may be of interest to you that Carthaginian and Roman influence meets in Sicily. Within the alliance we signed with them some years before in mutual support against the Molosson threat, Sicily was considered under Carthaginian sphere of influence. No roman army would cross the straits, and likewise no Carthaginian force would attack any part of the Italian mainland.

I once more express the difficulties and dangers to the north. It seems to be such a glance over that we have suffered so much at the hands of the Gauls. We must secure our homeland before we can expect to attack outside it. We need allies outside our controlled lands to protect our borders, so that our legions need not be tied up constantly patrolling to the north, waiting attacks from the Celts.

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

I insult no one by asking the Curia to reprimand your statements in here. I respect your rank; but not the man who claims the title. You claimed for all to hear that you "abhor" us. Perhaps you don't know the meaning of the word - in which case how you became a Senator and a commander of men must be brought into question? Allow me to clarify."

An clerk rushes forward with a copy of the lexicon already opened to the correct section. Tiberius thanks him genially, postures about the room for a few seconds and clears his throat dramatically.

"Our word 'abhorrēre' from ab- + horrēre (to shudder) has the meaning 'to regard with extreme repugnance; to loathe.' Those are your stated words, Legatus, about us, your fellow citizens - your fellow Romani. What else do we need to hold you accountable?"

Tiberius paces while dramatically posing as if thinking.

"Your 'love of your fellow man' is duely noted, Caius. Such a shame that your fellow men are dark skinned foreigners from across the sea who took advantage of our position and coerced us into a humiliating treaty and not those who share your blood, your heritage, your home! I tell you all this: Tiberius turns around slowly with a finger raised, garnering the attention of all the men of the legislative body If we do not strike first, we will be first struck! Carthago esse delendum!"

Tiberius pauses, glowing in the uproar of senators arguing and agreeing with each other in heated exchanges. It was pure rapture. He called for quiet to finish his address.

"Gentlemen, honored fathers and sons of Roma, I am a man of convictions; but I am not so hard-headed that I cannot see the forest for the trees. May I ammend my address by suggesting that since we've the man power, we fight on two fronts. It is not wholly impossible - our legions in the north are fully capable of dealing with the rabble that inhabits the mountainous country. Let us fill one to great strength to extend out influence and leave the other in reserve, on the off chance that we should be unsuccessful. Then, with the new Legio III being formed - which I still offer to help command - I suggest we advance into Sicilia as well.

"This is not entirely unsupportable. Let us take heart in the stories of the courage of Aeneas and Romulus and Remus, all of whom overcame extreme adversity and made us the great people that we are today."

[SwissBarbar]

Tiberius Claudius Marcellus, reserve yourself! Not only you insult a great warlord and true roman, but also a friend of my family. A roman legatvs is to be respected, especially by a young tribvnvs as you are.

[/Bean\]

As I have already stated, Senator, I used the term abhor in response to the feelings of shame I feel that our grand republic would so quickly and easily forget all that the treaty we have made stands for. We have few friends; I appeal to the senate-let us not lose another. We are two of the greatest nations on this sea. United, no one can hope to stand against us. The result of the Pyrric war shows this. We have no need to fight as of yet, especially when we have as of yet unfinished business in the north.

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

Raises an eyebrow at Aulus

"Young Tribunus to you as well, dear Aulus. I have paid due notice to Legatus Cotta's experience and service in the legions. His accomplishments are renowned throughout the Res Publica. However, he has insulted every member of the Curia with his comments, yourself included. I for one, shall not suckle at the proverbial teat of greatness like a muling infant. I demand satisfaction."

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

As I have already stated, Senator, I used the term abhor in response to the feelings of shame I feel that our grand republic would so quickly and easily forget all that the treaty we have made stands for. We have few friends; I appeal to the senate-let us not lose another. We are two of the greatest nations on this sea. United, no one can hope to stand against us. The result of the Pyrric war shows this. We have no need to fight as of yet, especially when we have as of yet unfinished business in the north.

(OOC: You edited your previous post and changed "abhor" to "beseech". Not very good RP if you ask me, and you didn't clarify that you meant abhor in reference to the feelings of shame.)

"If you have misspoken, Legatus, then I shall accept your mistake. I am sure you will forgive my indignation towards your spoken, though unintentional, insult."

[/Bean\]

I will not be drawn any further into this argument. I have made myself perfectly clear. I abhor not the men before me, but the discussion of the attacking our allies that these senators seem to think is acceptable. Tribune Marcellus has made his point clear and has begun to make the attack personal. Therefore here is the basis for my withdrawal.

I have a lot of paperwork to do regarding my legion. I will return to the Curia at a later date.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

OOC: I do actually have a lot of work to do for tomorrow. If I don't do it now I never will.

[Warluster]

Macvs stands angrily and quickly

It is good you have resolved the arguement, senators, as we do not need such useless talk disturbing our discussions. There are more important thing's are stake here then your honor. I insist you both get over it.

Marcvs nods politely towards both men

I actually agree with Legatus Cotta. Why'll Sicilia is a problem, I think we should strike into Gaul. Who cares if the Averni or Aedui are strng? We have Roman might! They shall tremble! One strike into that damned place and thousands of slaves shall run to our Roman mines!

Strike the place! Enslave or kill them all! Send two legion's I propose!

Marcvs stops talking in his booming voice, and sits down.

[navarro951]

After hearing the long debates Heres Blasio rises..

"Our dictator wishes to relay a message, he believes that the Carthaginians are imperialists! Our great Dentatvs speaks of truce with the Epirotes and war with Carthage. In all, he proposes:

Edict 3.3: That the war be declared on Carthage with the complete take over of Sicilia and institution of allied governments there.

Edict 3.4: That a diplomat be sent to Epeiros asking for a ceasefire in our long and drawn out war.

"It is my belief that in dealing with the Iberian barbarians, the Carthaginian forces in Sicilia will quickly fall to our sword and their navy can be dealt with at a later time."

[/Bean\]

Cotta, having recently stepped back into the hall, angrily rises.

Dictator, Heres, Senators of Roma. With every respect I have for our great Dictator, I cannot believe what I am hearing. Forgive me for saying so, but it sounds too much of a random outburst. The Dictator believes the Carthaginians are imperialists? What proof have we they harbour imperialist dreams? And in what way do these affect the safety of Roma and her allies in the near future? Would the dictator himself forsake Roman honour and attack our allies? Rome's reputation will be tainted forever.

As for the next edict, I also ask has the dictator so quickly forgotten his support and the support received from the senators here today that we would not finance our enemies in Greece? We have defeated our enemies there for the moment. Why should we now offer them the chance to use Roman gold to fund new armies to once more threaten the Italian peninsula? Forgive me, but these I fail to see what basis these edicts are based on, and how they are for the good of Rome?

[Mjolnir]

And what does our noble dictator base this claim of Carthaginian "imperialism" on? The fact that Carthaginian soldiers haven't moved outside their borders in the last 6 years?

Caivs' voice drips with sarcasm.

Do alliances mean so little to Rome that they can be broken without provocation?

As for peace with the Epeiros, I support. Our war with them is pointless now that we have driven them from our peninsula.

[navarro951]

"Ill grant you that, their forces have not moved. But they have kept a small force outside of Messana for some time now. The have harassed their trade routes and influenced them against joining our Republic. This you cannot disregard. Alliances do amount for much here in Roma, but as the Carthaginians grow economically stronger, it will become impossible for our two peoples to co-exist. What are we to do should one day these forces in Sicilia cross into Rhegion? Are we going to let them keep tabs on us when we have done nothing of the sort, at least not militarily?"

[/Bean\]

Then it is not stupendous to station a force in the south of Italy in the way of saying we can protect ourselves, but we honour alliances made? So they have troops postioned and diplomatic ideas of their own within their own sphere of influence? Are they not allowed? Sicily is not Roman, nor is it connected in any way to Rome. Carthage is within its own right, right dictated by a pact made by our own people, to station troops withing Sicily to protect it's interests there. I believe it to be a grave offence to see this an excuse to attack them, or simply an excuse to attack them.

[navarro951]

"Yes, but above all it is time to expand. We are not making the Denarii we could be making. And with the ports in Sicilia, we could fund our troops and new troops as well for years to come. And has it not been discussed already that Korsim and Sardin be taken? I cannot imagine the Dicator and myself are the only ones who believe in making this age an age of Roman expansion."

[/Bean\]

Sir, how can we speak of expanding when we do not even have secure our own country. Let us first ensure the country is safe, prosperous and happy. We can best do this by for now securing the south and what we control. We unite the northern cities of Patavium, Mediolanium and Massilia and ensure they are allied to Roma. They can then protect our borders, dispensing of the need for constant patrols of our legions to the north. Italia, Roma and the people will be secure. Then, and only then, do I propose we begin to think of expansion across waters.

[Mjolnir]

The question is not if to expand, but where to expand. I am at a lose why certain members of this assemble are insisting of tackling a sleeping bear, while we have a rabid dog snapping at our heels. We are already engaged with the Celts in the north, why leave the job unfinished to march all the way to the other in of our Republic to attack allies who have not made any threatening moves?