The Curia

[Potocello]

*Scipio stands up*


I second this proposal. Though not out of cowardice. The Gauls are mighty foes, and worthy enemies on the battlefield. I will personally congratulate any of the senators here if they go to fight with such a foe, and will vote yes on a triumph if they are victorious.

The greeks in the east are divided, and weakend. Not only that, but they are openly hostile to our merchants. Our ships are booted out of their harbors only because trade between them and the rest of the easterners are deemed more important.

I reccomend changes to my commander's proposal. We setup friendler goverments in their cities. People willing to trade and communicate with Rome, people who will be our eyes and ears in places away from Rome. Let them govern themselves, but with Rome's friendly shield protecting them, and them giving us tribute.

(OOC client kings).

*Deciumus Cornelius Scipio takes his seat. The senate is silent, whether about to agree or shout down the proposal; Scipio does not know*

"Your changes are appropriate, Scipio, let them be added to the proposal.

Let it be known that i too do not want to go to Greece out of cowardice. I have fought in the north under Asina and i know the challenges each Roman faces when fighting in the north and i respect any that does. I just think that lives are being wasted with continuous conquest in the north while Greece remains open. I beseech you senators, send the Legio III to Greece.

[navarro951]

Blasio remains seated, with a puzzled, but interested look on his face...

"Your plan is sound, and I carry no grudge against your Tribune let us pass that. But I think invading Greece is a near impossibility. We have just sent diplomats on a two year voyage all the way to Asia minor. We haven't the money for a navy to get our troops their. And besides the Hellons were all kind to us, Makedonia, the Koinon Hellenon, the Selecuids, and the small kingdom of Pontos all granted us trade rights and their map information of the world. It seems all that would be a waste if we just march our legions through new found friends.

Only Phyrros, who is my standing rival in this world, would I consider to attack. My mentor and father figure, our great Dictator Dentatvs, pushed the idea of peace with the Epirotes and focus on economic prosperity here in Roma. But, while I don't disagree with filling our coffers, I only spoke for Dentatvs but do not feel the same. I will listen to the debate on this topic, an emergency council may be needed, but I stand firm and will only cast my vote towards re-inviting the bloodshed of vile Epirote soldiers."

Remaining seated, Blasio opens the floor for discussion and nods toward Legatus Longvs.

[Mooks]

*Senator Scipio rises, obviosly knowing what the dictator was going to say. Perhaps he already knows what most people are going to say and has planned responses for them?*

Invading Greece is not a near impossibility. We shall 'borrow' what transports we need from our merchant class. Of course we will compensate them for it, but they should be happy about it! We are expanding their profits 10 fold, for the markets of Greece are more numerous then Italia.

The easterners gave us trade rights like they would infants candy. Us romans are not a seafaring culture, and they know that. There is barely any room in their harbors for the ships we do have! They get their olive oil and wine from other places.

Please senators, realize this opportunity! The Greeks and Macedonians are now as we speak engaged in a fierce war. The Hellens army will be experianced, but depleted. Legio 3 has complete confidence in itself for quick and decisive victorys. If you send the legio III to Greece, our coffers will refill, the slave markets will refill, our ships will travel farther then they have ever gone before. How long have we gone without a scraping the bottom of the barrel that is the treasury? How long have we went without greeks to tutor and educate our young sons of Rome? Too long I say.

*Scipio sets down abruptly.*

(OOC me and marcellus posted at the same time. Hate when that happens)

[navarro951]

"Your telling me, and senators I would never doubt the might of a Roman legion, but you are telling me that the new Legio III which has not yet been tested in battle could easily, as you've put it, smash against the military strength and tactical genius that is the Spartan hoplite?"

[Mooks]

"Your telling me, and senators I would never doubt the might of a Roman legion, but you are telling me that the new Legio III which has not yet been tested in battle could easily, as you've put it, smash against the military strength and tactical genius that is the Spartan hoplite?"

I admire the spartan hoplites. But its been decades, maybe even centurys before they were ever in sufficent numbers to actually be a winning force. Makedonia and Greece have been in a war for decades now, the polis in the south of greece will be lightly defended.

If Rome decides to lead another legio against the Epirotes, I will not agree or disagree. Its a sound plan, and the Dalmation pirates are really bad this time of year.

[navarro951]

"And what if it does fail gentlemen. Say we do take Sparte, Corinth. And then what??? You think Makedon and Greece are just going to accept a peace then? NO! They will come down on us with their most elite troops and massacre us. Xerxes was stopped at Thermopylae, then they will fight with everything they've got to beat us as well. We are speaking so far ahead of ourselves it gives me a headache"

[Potocello]

"Your telling me, and senators I would never doubt the might of a Roman legion, but you are telling me that the new Legio III which has not yet been tested in battle could easily, as you've put it, smash against the military strength and tactical genius that is the Spartan hoplite?"

"As Scipio has said, the Spartans have not truly been a formidable force for quite some time, the same
can be said for Greece as a whole. They stand a shattered nation of another time.

As you all know, i have fought the vicious barbarians in the north. It can be said that their ferocity can
rival that of the Spartan hoplite. I am confident that Marcellus' loyalty and wisdom and Scipio's fiery
passion will translate well to the battlefield. I am confident that we can lead the Legio III Campania to
victory against the Spartans. It is true, Roman might may be tested in the battle against the Spartans
but it is a battle we cannot lose.

Senators, the wealth of Greece is bleeding from their disunited land. Let us stop the bleeding with
Roman influence. Let us sail to Greece."

[navarro951]

"Let us sail to Greece? Tell me what do you plan to sail on? Planks, logs, or are you willing to swim? We haven't the money for a standing navy. If it was a navy to simply leave the legion on the Greek territory, which would be insane, then sure. But we would have to keep a standing navy to pull the men out of their. It is too costly, and risky aside from what you believe. We've no idea the strength of their armies divided or not. And no naked, idiotic barbarian will ever amount to what the Spartans have accomplished in their time. Our legions have proven their worth, but we are yet to face an enemy as monstrous as the Greeks have faced. Yes they are divided, but in times of war they can come together as one formidable foe."

[Mooks]

"Let us sail to Greece? Tell me what do you plan to sail on? Planks, logs, or are you willing to swim? We haven't the money for a standing navy. If it was a navy to simply leave the legion on the Greek territory, which would be insane, then sure. But we would have to keep a standing navy to pull the men out of their. It is too costly, and risky aside from what you believe. We've no idea the strength of their armies divided or not. And no naked, idiotic barbarian will ever amount to what the Spartans have accomplished in their time. Our legions have proven their worth, but we are yet to face an enemy as monstrous as the Greeks have faced. Yes they are divided, but in times of war they can come together as one formidable foe."

As I said before, Ships from the merchant class. In case you never saw one before, they are perfect transports.

Legio III will capture a city within 2 seasons, if the transports get raided before that then we can gather another fleet of merchants or the remnants of the defeated fleet with the gold we take from the Hellenes. It will all pay for itself.

Yes, in Sparta's TIME. Not now, not since our great grandfathers lived. What have they acheived of note? Very few of their warriors are trained like they were of old.

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

Tiberius Claudius Marcellus and a handfull of senatores stand up and pound the desks in front of them with their fists repeatedly, accompanied by just as many repeated grunts of agreement as is the custom of parliamentary bodies. Various shouts of "Death to Greece!", "Eastward!", and "Legio III will succeed!" intersperse the commotion and jubilant concurence.

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

Tiberius Claudius Marcellus stands again with an arm extended out towards Scipio.

"Honored members of the Senate, my fellow Tribunus and senator speaks the truth. Hellas is divided and ripe for conquest. Noble Dictator Blasio, your anymosity towards the Molossian is well-placed. As an ammendment to this proposal, I suggest that to deal with the Epirote menace, we allow one of the Legions in the north to harass and possibly even take the region of Dalmatia to draw Pyrrhus' attention off of our subversion in the south. There will not be many large battles to be fought against the Koinon Hellenon or the Makedonians. They are concerned with their own individual agendas rather than unite against us. This plan cannot fail.

"I have trained many years with a former commander of the armies of Taras. He is my aide de camp and an honest and capable man, true. I assure you that our legions are more mobile than any hoplite or even a phalanx, and the best way to annihilate them is to flank and surround them. Again I state that we will not fail."

[navarro951]

"I am a man of the senators , of the republic, if this topic truly suits some of us,and others are against it, it may be time for an emergency council. Give me a bit of time to make this decision."

[Mjolnir]

Senator Caivs stands, fury in his eyes.

What madness is this? Even after their plans to attack our allies in the south have been voted down, some members of this Senate insist upon proposing yet another folly. There are edicts passed by this Senate that are yet undone, but you begin push "daring" new plans before the ink is even dry.

The Celts and Gauls may not be united, but they are numerous. There are three major settlements yet to be taken by our legions in Cisalpine Gaul, something that makes the use of Legio III in the north a necessity. It is not cowardice, but prudence to say this and it is arrogance to say otherwise. We are Romans, YES, but not gods. As I have said before, the north is large, sending three legions there will cause no great difficulty for food stores, especially if we send Legio III to Massalia Caivs' voice rises and hardens as this Senate ordered be taken. There is business for us in the north, business that the Senate felt was more important than ill-conceived forays in the south or east.

And yet you would have us sail across the sea in boats we don't have and can't afford, to a land filled with the battle hardened sons of Megos Alexandros, and take the legendary city of Sparta with a legion of green untested soldiers. And then what? What will we do then surrounded by Greek armies and cut off from reinforcements and supplies in a land turned against us by our unprovoked hostility. Sirs your plan is madness without any help from my tongue. And this is without even mentioning the loss of trade and friendship our diplomats have just secured for us. Should that be tossed aside so lightly?

And finally, for those of you who spent too much time with your Greek tutors growing up, there are plenty of boy-lovers in the Greek colony of Massalia with which for you to make friends.

Senator Caivs Aemilia casts a meaningful glance at Senator Tiberius a small mocking smile playing at his lips.

I say that this proposal is self-apparent foolishness, let us discard it as such and speak no more of an attack on Hellas at present.

Senator Caivs resumes his seat

[Potocello]

"Senator Caivs, plans to attack Carthage were foolish because they are united. They have the
wealth, the power, and the territory to defeat us while the Hellen do not. We would take Sparte
leaving the Koinon Hellenon with only two territories. From there, we could build our forces, retrain
and prepare to take Korinthos if we desire to. Makedonia is strong but will be to preoccupied with
fighting Epeiros and the remaining Koinon Hellenon that they will not be able to route us from Greece.

And how dare you insult senator Tiberius. His education has turned him into one of the best men i
have ever known."

Servivs stands there, furious at Caivs for the insult

OOC: ah i hate responding after someone has said something new while i was writing

[Mooks]

Senator Caivs stands, fury in his eyes.

What madness is this? Even after their plans to attack our allies in the south have been voted down, some members of this Senate insist upon proposing yet another folly. There are edicts passed by this Senate that are yet undone, but you begin push "daring" new plans before the ink is even dry.

The Celts and Gauls may not be united, but they are numerous. There are three major settlements yet to be taken by our legions in Cisalpine Gaul, something that makes the use of Legio III in the north a necessity. It is not cowardice, but prudence to say this and it is arrogance to say otherwise. We are Romans, YES, but not gods. As I have said before, the north is large, sending three legions there will cause no great difficulty for food stores, especially if we send Legio III to Massalia Caivs' voice rises and hardens as this Senate ordered be taken. There is business for us in the north, business that the Senate felt was more important than ill-conceived forays in the south or east.

And yet you would have us sail across the sea in boats we don't have and can't afford, to a land filled with the battle hardened sons of Megos Alexandros, and take the legendary city of Sparta with a legion of green untested soldiers. And then what? What will we do then surrounded by Greek armies and cut off from reinforcements and supplies in a land turned against us by our unprovoked hostility. Sirs your plan is madness without any help from my tongue. And this is without even mentioning the loss of trade and friendship our diplomats have just secured for us. Should that be tossed aside so lightly?

And finally, for those of you who spent too much time with your Greek tutors growing up, there are plenty of boy-lovers in the Greek colony of Massalia with which for you to make friends.

Senator Caivs Aemilia casts a meaningful glance at Senator Tiberius a small mocking smile playing at his lips.

I say that this proposal is self-apparent foolishness, let us discard it as such and speak no more of an attack on Hellas at present.

Senator Caivs resumes his seat

*Scipio rises calmly. Emphasizes his cool head and calmness. Next to Aemilia's fury he might appear more intelligent and coolheaded then he actually is*

Thats quite a arguement there but I respect it, and debate it one by one in order.he

The 3 settlements yet to be taken can be taken by Legio 1 and 2. The glory is all theirs. If needed, legio 3 can stay behind until they can be taken. I shouldve made this more clear. Pardon that.

The edict just failed for the attack on Carthrage, yet it wasnt because they were our allies. Dont let that fool you, it was because the north isnt taken yet, and that was in the past. The north gets closer and closer to being taken. Its also because we didnt have a extra legion on hand.

The land of Greece is not the land it was when Socrates, Homor, Pelicles, or when Thermoplye happened. The land is just as rich as it was back then, but its soldiers are mercenarys in the far east, its military traditions have been outdated, and the war with Makedonia have depleted the armies it does have.

And the question not what would we do when encountered by a superior force, but what would they do.

*Scipio takes his seat. A fellow senator behind him sais to him "Did you see his Aemilia's face?*

(OOC I know what you mean ;)

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

"Legatus Longus, Tribunus Scipio, thank you for your defense of my character. These hallowed halls have indeed been defiled with such a personal insult as the one made by Senator Mamercus. But I shall accept his disrespect with calm and refuse to acknowledge it further. Indeed, it is beneath those of the Gens Claudia to be dragged into public feuds like commoners. His arguments have been refuted by you, Scipio; and, should any doubt remain, let it be made clear that Senator Mamercus is but a pawn of those in league with Legatus Cotta. He and those like him are as wolves: bold in numbers, cautious by themselves, going whichever way the wind blows."

[navarro951]

Blasio shoots up and storms in anger...

"How dare you speak of Legatus Cotta in that way! He is brother of Roma and a brother to me! You are but a tribune, and have not proven yourself to even half of what Legatus Cotta has. You speak as if you have been through the bloody battles they have. Wolves! You disgust me!"