The Curia

[The Celtic Viking]

Pvblivs walks into the Curia, dressed in a toga and looking confident in his strides, yet uncomfortable in his clothes. He walks over to a scribe, shares a few whispers and then stands up to speak, turning first towards Blasio.

"So you're finally doing it, huh? Good... if only a little late. However, I have some points to make regarding some of your Amendments.

First off is CA 3.3. Why should the "Primus Inter Pares" decide himself? Why should the senate have to pass a vote first if they wish to vote on it? Are you trying to engineer a long and complicated process in order to keep your dictatorship but in different clothes? There is no need to be swift when granting provinces to senators, so there's no reason why the senate shouldn't have all the say in it.

Then CA 3.4." Pvblivs snorts. "Why should he own a Consular legion? Shouldn't they, as their name implies, belong to the Consuls?

CA 3.5 suffer the same critique as CA 3.4, and more. If he should truly be equal, as you say he should, then why should he be allowed to make unlimited edicts and amendments when everyone else can not? Why should his edicts and amendments not need to be seconded, when everyone elses need two? Why should he be allowed to mingle in infastructure as he pleases, with no need for the senate to agree? I can go on with this, but it is obvious that you are not willing to let go of being dictator. You wish not the name, but you still act like one.

CA 3.7 just proves my point. You wish to remain dictator while not suffering from the drastic PR that title gives you. Not only should you keep a consular army even if you're not a consular, you wish to legaly be able to use that to install yourself as a dictator the second your front as a "republican" falls. Anyone who opposes your will is to be an outlaw. How ingenious of you.

If there still are people wondering whether he really considers himself an equal, look at how he separates himself from the senate in CA 3.8. "The princeps senatus or the senate can..." Hmpf.

If you have any intention of appearing legit, you will adjust your propositions accordingly.

Now I wish to propose an Edict as well:

Edict 3.4: One unit of Hastati from Legio I Apvlia should be replaced with a unit of Triarii, and one Accensi from the same army should be replaced with Leves.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

OOC: The Hastati->Triarii can be roleplayed that one of the Principes became triarii, and one of the hastati became principes.

Lastly I wish to announce that I will be running for the position as Consul of Finance."

[Kipfizh]

Hmm, some good debate. I agree to a lot of the Edicts so far but I will incline to comment untill a later date. Finally I wish to impose that:

Edict 3.5: The Roman Leadership line of traits be removed from the game and then released.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Discuss this in OOC please.

[Potocello]

Another messenger comes in to the Curia, he to bears a message from Legatvs Longvs

"Senators, due to the situation I am in with the rebels i would like to propose

Edict 3.6:During a Congressional Council, a Legio may attack the settlement/units the senate has ordered them to attack, if they are able to to so in that without starting a new turn. This would save so much time, seeing Legio is required to return Roma.

(OOC: does this need to be a CA if it does, then i can't propose this.)

[Kipfizh]

I do not see the reasoning in this let me explain.

OOC: It doesn't really save any time except you get it done quicker. I do not think it is fair on other people as well and I'm sure a Legion could look after it self for a few days seeing as we roleplay months at a time.

[/Bean\]

Cotta stands.

I'm afraid I must clash with Legatus Regulus at this edict. Why should the Legio I Apulia be upgraded and not the other legions? We have all fought as hard, if not quite as long. I request that if Edict 3.4 is to be passed, then it be edited to all legions receive new units. As Dux, I am intitled to lead a slightly larger legion. I counter propose that if Legio I Apulia receives new units, then Legio II Latium should also. I have many veterans in my First Cohort who would make a fine Cohort of Triarii, and I can select enough men to replace those who become Triarri from the lower ranks.

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

A rather well-dressed clerk, now known to most as Quintus Flavius, Freeman, enters the Curia and after being directed by a guard, heads directly towards Aedile Flamen. He stands politely in the galleria and awaits to be summoned. After acknowledging a gesture he hands the Aedile of Segesta and the surrounding region a sealed letter. Quintus makes a quick bow of his head and exits as quickly as he came.

[The Celtic Viking]

"I'm afraid that you can make no such request, Cotta. My soldiers have fought long and hard, and they deserve this - and it doesn't hurt Legio II or III in any way. Your objection to it is silly, because it's based solely on jelousy and not on what's actually best for Rome.

As for your so-called "counter-proposal", it's neither an actual counter-proposal nor is it in any way legally binding, even if everyone wanted it. But I am a very reasonable man, as you will find out. If you tell me which units you would exchange for what in Legio II Latium, I may edit my edict to include them if I find them reasonable. Otherwise my edict proposal stays the way it is, and you will have to find someone else to use his edict for it instead."

[Mooks]

All this talk of rearranging units made me thinking. The illyrians will no doubt fight as skirmishers, using hit and run. Perhaps it is for the best if we add more of our own skirmishers, or slingers to our rosters. Just a idea.

[navarro951]

"Blasio stands.."

"Indeed, the Princeps Senatus and ProMagistrate will now only be allowed 2 edicts/charters and the CA will be revised to make that happen. I will withdraw Edict 3.2."

(OOC: I meant to that anyway.)

I second Edict 3.3.

Also, allow me to answer some questions asked here.

While the CA may or may not be up for debate. I wish to add my input or questions or maybe some suggestions of improvement to them. If you are inclined, feel free to ignore them.

CA 3.1: 4.6 House’ Legion/Families Legion

While I agree with the overall content of this. I do not think that just because you are in a house you have to serve in that particular legion/region of the houses sphere of influence. Thats not my main point though, how does a house initially gain a region? Say 4 legions gain control of Spain and a house wants to call it their own, how do they proceed to do that and what if another starting house wants it also?

You do not have to serve in any legion. It is decided by the House Leader. All of Romes legions are decided by the senate. And a family cannot take settlements and call them their own. They belong to Rome and the senate. The senate will decide who owns territories. In essence, the more prov.governors you have, the more settlements you have in your family/house. Its a political thing.

CA 3.4:

The only use for a heir I see is that you own one legion and can make unlimited edicts. Is this merely a legislative advantage? Would a character have to return to Rome to be a heres?

No he would not. And he is not the heir, just a promagistrate decided by the senate who will be looked on as a wise senator, popular senator, authority figure, pick and choose gentlemen.

CA 3.8:
4.2 Standard Legions

If a commander is ordered to say, attack the mainland of Carthrage. How much control will the senate have over its actions? Will it be guided step by step by the senate? That seems stupid to me.

"Well as usual, the targeted settlements will be chosen and he will take them. After that, as the rules say, you can attack any settlement you want as long as they are already our enemy."

I agree with edict 1.1. Though what are the limitations to the movement of the 4th legion. If its under the dictators personnel command, how far is it allowed to go? Only inside Italia? Is it going to be in a fort near Capua? How is a dictator going to serve his primary purpose if hes on a campaign?

I am no longer dictator, I am a consul/princeps so I will command the army by rank and the will of the senate...as i said, if they will have me.

[SwissBarbar]

OOC:

We have an ingame faction leader. We cannot change that. So this is the Princeps Senatus, who is primus inter pares. With that we must and we can live.

We also have to have a faction heir. And this exactly is the point, how the senate can choose the Princeps Senatus. We cannot change the faction leader. If one char is faction leader, he cannot be "unfactionleadered", so the senate will have to choose the next Princeps Senatus before the current one is dead, because who is heir, we can decide on our own.

I say, every time a Princeps Senatus dies, the senate votes the promagistrate, who will become Princeps when the old one dies (may be one more reason for civil war), and with that the senate automatically elects the Princeps. For reasons of game limitations this is the most roman republican - like way we can walk on.

[The Celtic Viking]

OOC: No, there's a much better way: ignore the in-game faction leader/heir thing completely. It wouldn't be there if it wasn't hardcoded anyway, so it makes perfect sense to play the game as if it wasn't.

[navarro951]

OOC: No, there's a much better way: ignore the in-game faction leader/heir thing completely. It wouldn't be there if it wasn't hardcoded anyway, so it makes perfect sense to play the game as if it wasn't.

OOC: What about when we get MoTHs? what would be the point of accepting them? How would people enter the family tree? If they do not, they couldnt have kids and have an in-game linage which makes for great fun. The Princeps Senatus and Promagistrate returns basically every dictatorial power to the senate. I dont see why there is still opposition.

[navarro951]

More time is needed on legislation, extending the Council 12 hours!

[/Bean\]

Legatus Regulus, I continue with the idea that it would almost be an unfair advantage to the Legio I Apulia should they have the best armour and weapons, when my legio, and all the legions that have yet to fight in any battle will undoubtebly also need them. Better soldiers make better armies, which in turn serve the Res Republic all the better.

I would settle for no less in my legion than my current First Cohort be upgraded to Triarii, the best men of the other Cohorts to refill the spaces left my the First Cohort, and a new unit of infantry and skirmish recruits for my army.

(OOC:Unit of Triarri, new unit of Hastati and a unit of Leves)

[everyone]

Dux Cotta, you seem as if you are proposing a diplomatic agreement or bartering with whoever who would become a Consul of the Legions.
Since it has been stated in the charter that "Standard Legions will consist of a minimum of 5 infantry cohorts, 2 ranged and 1 cavalry cohorts"; I suppose it would be allowed if the units you mentioned be added or upgraded.
anyway regarding this and a few other matters, I have a few CA's to propose:

CA 3.14 (OOC: pi):
To be added to Rule 4.2
Commanders of a standard legion may request that their legions be upgraded in any way via an edict once per two congressional sessions, to the limitations their ranks allow (e.g. if you're legatus you can't propose to add a unit to the legion). The orders are to be carried out by the Consul of the Legions after the session, moving units into or away from the target legion if necessary
examples of upgrades: upgrading unit armour/weapons, upgrading one unit to a stronger unit e.g. hastati into principes, adding units to the legion
OOC: this CA is to clarify to what extent legion commanders can upgrade their legions, though I suppose the edict proposed by TCV (Regulus) might also take place this congressional session; there's nothing in the rules which say that it can't

CA 3.15:
Modification of Rule 2.4 (changes in bold)
Tribunus
Requirements: None (Training Stage)
Influence: 1 if at all
Powers: None
Penalties:
(1) The Tribunus is second or third in command of a legion. He is young and therefore must learn how to properly lead and is required to serve in a Legion under a Legatus for at least 2 battles to be promoted, serve as an aid to a Provincial Dictator for 2 years, hold the rank of Aedile for two consecutive congressional sessions or serve under an aedile for two consecutive congressional sessions.
OOC: this is for players such as kipfizh/desert who would probably have no chance of serving as an aid/in a legion throughout his term as aedile

Also, I second Legatus Regulus' edict 3.4, and if Dux Cotta proposes his requests as an edict I would also second it. I think both legions I and II can make use of their upgrades on the next campaign they are sent on.

[/Bean\]

My reason for not turning my proposal into and edict, Cicero, is that I can only state one edict per congressional session, as my rank allows. I have already proposed Edict 3.3.

[The Celtic Viking]

"Cotta, you are talking as if Legio I and II are enemies, and not friends. A stronger Legio I means a stronger Roma, and I hope that's a good thing in your book. But as you are so against Legio I getting one slight upgrade, why should I get you three whole new units?

No, you are a hypocrite, Cotta. If you don't want my Legion to have "an unfair advantage" - as if Legio I would ever be the enemy of Legio II - you shouldn't in the same breath trying to make a bigger "unfair advantage" for Legio II."

Regvlvs turns to Cicero.

"With all due respect, Cicero, you cannot propose CAs. It is too bad because they are both reasonable, and I would've seconded them."

Regvlvs now turns to Blasio, with a sly smile on his face.

"What's the matter, your highness? Do you think ignoring my comments will make them go away? Afraid you'd make a fool of yourself trying to come up with excuses, but can't admit that I am right?

The emperor is naked, everyone. He has revealed himself for who he truly is. Your options are clear: oppose him or oppose the republic."

[/Bean\]

My dear Regulus. My comments were never intended as if we were enemies. I do apologise. Speaking of an unfair advantage, I only mean in the way that Legio I Apulia will undoubtedly become the strongest legion, and I do not think this is fair on the men under my command.

And I do advise, as a friend, to tone down your personal attacks on Consul Blasio.

[The Celtic Viking]

"That changes absolutely nothing, my dear friend. You are still a hypocrite because you want Legio I kept down so that your men shouldn't feel they are in weaker Legio, but have no shame in proclaiming how you want to make Legio II stronger than Legio I, completely ignoring that my men may not like that Legio II is stronger than Legio I. You speak of equal strengths while attempting to make Legio II the strongest. That is why I will not put what you asked for in my edict.

Oh, and by the way, I see no reason to call a spade anything else than a spade, so until Blasio becomes something else, I will treat him for what he is."

[navarro951]

I hereby declare that the time for proposing legislation has passed! Voting will begin shortly. There will be a two day period allocated for voting. Voting will end at 8am Pacific on Tuesday, January 3 or upon the time all senators have voted.

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

Quintus Flavius enters through a side door and briefly runs his hands through his hair and down his clothing to shed the rainwater which has been falling all day. He takes a quick look around and on noticing the Prima Inter Pares, walks over to him, gives a quick bow of his head and hands over a sealed letter, no doubt containing the votes of his master Tiberius Claudius Marcellus.

[/Bean\]

Cotta looks around at the senators, before standing.

Gentlemen, I will now relay the plan for the impending Dux Campaign in Illyria.

I will keep it brief, and allow you all to ask the questions you need to if my explanation does not satisfy. The overall objective of the campaign in to quickly and painlessly secure control of all Illyria, before spending the time to secure Roman allied control and protecting Italia from invasion. Other objectives include underwriting the power of the kingdom of Epirus by defeating her allies and strangling her trade income, and also to rid the coast of pirate threat.

Firstly, I plan to march the Legio II Latium by spring. We will cross the kingdom of Patavium to the border of the kingdom of Segestica, whereupon we will force our way south, using force, money and diplomacy to make our way along the coast, taking out any pirate hideouts we encounter upon the way. We will be heading towards the kingdom of Dalminion, a strong ally of Epirus. Our supplies will come from a fleet which I intend to have built by the time we begin moving down the coast. They should be safe from pirate attack if the Legion is successful in it's first objective. Once the last of the pirate bases has been eradicated, the legio will head inland, whereupon the fleet will return to Italia. The Legio will now be on it's own. It will head towards the city of Dalminion, accept it's surrender or force it if necessary. This should be completed by the end of the year.

Now for the Legio I Apulia. The command of the legio will remain with Legatus Regulus. He will take the legio from the north of Italia across the kingdom of Patavium to invade the kingdom Segestica. He will enter Illyria by land in the summer, and head inland along the foot of the mountains. The Legio I Apulia will capture the kingdoms largest port-city, before heading inland. He will then head for the capital, Segestica; by the time winter has set in the Legio should be in charge of the city. Once captured, the Legio must secure the kingdom in the spring, capturing the mining and industrial operation centres.

Finally, the Legio III Campania. The Legio III, led by Legatus Longvs, will have to deal with the rebels in the south of Italia before they engage in Illyria. This should be done by the spring. The Legio III will then be resupplied to full strength, before meeting up with the navy in the port of Arpi.
Boarding the fleet, the Legio will then cross the straits between Italia and Illyria, landing on the beaches just north of the city of Epidamnos in the Autumn. There job is to secure this city quickly, thus blocking the route for Epirite reinforcements to Illyria. This, of course, is the danger. The Legio III must hold off Epirite counter attacks not just along the coast, but across the mountains of Epirus and Makedonia also. The winter should be a long enough time for the Legio to secure the region before Epirite forces can mobilise. I will be asking for reinforcements be sent as soon as possible across the sea to garrison the city of Epidamnos, so that the Legio may be at full strength and mobility as quickly as possible. If the Legio III can hold off the enemy for long enough, the Legio II can come to their aid.


Once the Legio's I and II have secured the IIlyrian kingdoms, they will need to construct a line of forts and defences along river crossings and mountain passes into Illyria from the east, north and south. I will require reinforcment units quickly from Italia to man these forts, though not many will be required in each. Once this is done, the legio's can move south towards Greece.

Although the cities of Segestica, Dalminion and Epidamnos are our prime targets, simply capturing these cities will not be enough to secure victory. We must follow up on these captures to secure our influence in the region.

I now open the floor to the Senate.

[navarro951]

"The plan for the most part is sound. However, I believe each legio should have a designated target. I Legio will take one city II Legio another and III Legio a third. We can use my Consular legio when it is finished to defend the Legios besieging towns from enemy field armies.

Also, with the training of Legio IV, which is much larger, im not so sure a fleet can be built unless it is made then destroyed once III Legio arrives."