OOC Thread and Chatroom

[mini]

I'm not saying higher ranked players cannot propose any laws.
On the contrary, Consuls & praetors also had the power to propose laws.

The point is that only people with a current OFFICE, should be able to make laws. Not just any senator with a high rank :) They can motion for a law to be made, but when it comes to actually voting the law at the congressional meeting, it should come from someone in office (thus removing the 'seconding' rule)

This can be reached by making a distinction between ranks and offices :)
Let's say we make the following offices electable:
consuls (alrdy voteable)
Praetors (new)
Tribuni plebis (alrdy voteable)
The amount of offices for the last 2 that can be available should be based on players currently active.

This results in only the above offices being able to propose laws.

The other current ranks do still matter of course, in the way that your rank determines how heavy your vote counts when it comes to elections.


The idea to reach here is that we have: senators in office making laws <=> senators leading armies/provinces only voting.

[KipDan]

But I still think being able to have all that power whilst still effectively being in the lowest rank is a bit strange.

[mini]

well it's historical accurate :)

plus the senate has the access to money.

And with more tribunes of plebs chosen, nobody can run rampage :)

[KipDan]

I'm guessing a lot of things in this RP are very unhistorical.

[mini]

nothing wrong with that. Just trying to improve it a bit, to get a more dynamic system going. if everybody can propose laws, what's the use in lobbying and factioning? ;p

Ok, for getting votes you still need to do it. Would be more fun if there can be a bit of a battle between factions before a law is even put to the vote ;)

[KipDan]

Yeah, but with the amount of land that is currently owned there is really no space for different factions so, then, maybe only certain people can propose laws would be better.

[mini]

u don't need land to have factions in the senate:)

Maybe u can give the tribune the chance to pass 3 laws without havign a vote on it.

Being able to do so because he had it voted by the People in the comitia, where patricians couldn't vote


Also take into account that the next batch of tribunes can easily erase all the laws a previous tribune has made, since the new ones can also make laws without voting then :)

[KipDan]

3 veto's. Too much, maybe one. If you want to think about it in that sense then a dozen or more laws were passed in the Senate every week let alone 3 years like we do it. In that sense to scale it down with the amount of laws proposed last session then 1 veto is far more than enough.

[TinCow]

BtSH Players:

There has been a recent trend by many people in this particular thread to make remarks which are either hostile or potentially offensive. I understand that these games create friendships amongst the players, and that is a good thing that I want to encourage. However, the Org Rules on posting etiquette need to be followed.

Posts containing any generally objectionable material: knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law. Posting of copyrighted material, unless the copyright is owned by you or by The Guild, is discouraged. The Guild expects its patrons to remain civil even in the face of disagreements. Any kind of "flaming", slurs, or insults -- addressed to either an individual or a group -- is extremely inappropriate. Please respect etiquette at all times.

I know that the vast majority of the things that have been said in here were intended as jokes amongst friends, but they have started crossing the line with increasing frequency. This needs to stop. Please keep the public discussions tasteful and free from obscenities. If you'd like to get a bit more 'liberated' with your language, you can always do it via PMs or by creating a private Social Group.

Many thanks!

[/Bean\]

Bah! Who did that? ...Ok.... I see your point though, it could be easily taken too far or someone taking a joke the wrong way. Luckily I think everyone involved was indeed not being serious and only jibing, and no one to my knowledge took any real offfence at it. But I agree it shouldn't happen here.

Anyway, it's a shame we've had this Carthie event in a way. We should do one for Mini's reforms; the reforms of Qvintvs Aemilivs Regillus, seeing as Mini's coming up with so many ways to improve this PBM. Anyone think this is a good idea?

[mini]

except that my chars is Quintus Aemilius Regillus, it's all good :D

i'm open for debate or clarification if anyone needs.

[/Bean\]

Yes...I know...thats why I put Regillus......Phew, got out of that one.

[mini]

sneaky edit ;p

[/Bean\]

I dont know what your talking about...Looks at burely guard. "You, I don't know why your hanging around here, but remove this false stuff spreader."

[mini]

hehe :)
Well glad atleast someone likes my proposals.

[/Bean\]

I like what your trying to do, but you have to understand that its a huge upheaval for this game, as it basically throws everything out the window and we have to start from scratch. Promotion no longer means as much. For what your trying to create (more historical accuracy) able to implement into the rules, I'm afraid you would have to do a lot of work, to rewrite many of the rules, create many new posts and ranks/offices, stuff like that, so that Navarro doesnt have to do it. Then present what you have done, and your much more likely to get the pass.

Basically, write it in plain english what you think the new rules should be, what changes you want to make and the effects this would create. People are likely to argue if it means they have to start thinking about it or doing something about it themselves. I'm happy to help, but to be honest its your idea, ideals and so you need to do the work.

[mini]

i'll summarize the shiznit then, when i'm tired of my english game atm ;)

[Potocello]

good lord, navarro got 7 votes in the council?! that's a lot of votes

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

The best way to solve this is to propose it as a Charter Ammendment (either when you attain the rank of Dux or when you bribe/convince someone to propose that legislation).

I personally think some reforms wouldn't be all that bad, certainly not "earth shattering" to our way of life here

[KipDan]

I agree with your sentiments but if you proposed them in, 'plain English' as Bean said and write exactly what you wish instead of snippets of information I'm sure I'd understand more anyway, as I have learnt these rules off by heart. As always, I'm all for historical accuracy, if you can make it work.

[/Bean\]

I think if you can make it work it will be fantastic. A real trial and error thing for this PBM, means future PBM's will work better and we will all learn what works and what doesnt work so well. We've already seen that this works with the demise of the Dictators and the introduction of the Tribune of Plebs rank. We should keep trying this stuff out. Good effort Mini

[mini]

i'm preparing a megapost, dont worry :D

[/Bean\]

A who what now?

[mini]

So, here i'll propose a few new rules/mechanics.
Mind you that, to prevent multiposting, I might edit quite a lot ;)
All of this is of course open for discussion and coutns as a suggestion, as I am not the GM.

First of all, I would like to define 'pomerium', as it will return frequently:
pomerium in this game will be: all cities from arretium/ariminum down to Rhegium.


About Ranks: these are player ranks, mostly concerns governement.

Tribunus Militum

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Requirements: None (Training Stage)
Influence: 1 if at all
Vote weight: 1
Powers:
Penalties:
(1) The Tribunus is second or third in command of a legion. He is young and therefore must learn how to properly lead and is required to serve in a Legion under a Legatus for at least 2 battles to be promoted or serve as an aid to a Provincial Dictator for 2 years.
(2) May not lead an army nor propose laws.
(3) Cannot Run for Consul
(4) Can only join a Legion that has a legate in it. Otherwise skulks in Rome to gain ancilliaries until he gets elected as Tribunus Plebis OR appointed Quastor by a consul of finance.

Tribune of the Plebs

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Speaks for the Plebs in the Comita.
Requirements: Must be elected to position. Atleast 2 tribunes should be in office.
Influence: 1+1
Vote weight: 2
Powers:
(1) Can propose one edict/charter amendment per congressional council;
(2) Can veto.
(3)The Tribune of the Plebs term is two Consul Terms long. (6 years)
(4) Can issue 3 laws outside the congressional council(representing their lawmaker role in the republic). These laws will take 2 turns before going into effect,giving the other Tribune(s) the chance to veto.
Penalties:
(1) May not lead an army
(2) Cannot Run for Consul
(3) Must remain in Rome.

Quaestor
R

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

equirements: Must have been appointed by the consul of Finance.
Influence: 2 + 1 Stat Influence
Vote weight: 1
Powers:
(1) Can propose one Edict/Charter Amendment per 'Congressional' Session.
(2) Can control one city in the pomerium, appointed to him by the CoF.
(3) Must be appointed by Consul of Finance
(4) Can act as second in command to a Legate/General/Consul
(5) Can also govern a provincial city in the province of a governor.
Penalties
(1) Cannot command a Legion

Praetor

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Requirements:Must have been Quaestor OR Tribunus plebis. Must have 20 'battle points'. Must be elected.
Influence: 2 + 1 Stat Influence
Vote weight: 3
Powers:
(1) Can lead 1 legion
(2) Can propose 3 Edicts/Charter Amendments per 'Council' Session.
(3) Will get to choose province to govern when term as praetor is over, after both consuls have chosen theirs.
(4) Can act as judge when players charge eachother for crimes.

Consul of Finance

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Only Consul of Finance will end the “turn”.
Requirements: Must have been elected to this office. Must have been Praetor.
Influence: 2 + 1 Stat Influence
Vote weight: 4
Powers:
(1) Can build any building in any settlements he wishes and set the tax rate in any settlement unless they are part of a Provincial Governorship. Cannot recruit military units.
(2) Gains automatically control of the Consular Legio II. This legion will be stationed in a fort outside Capua. It may never enter Latium unless passing through or if there is an enemy near Rome. Legion will be used only to clean up rebels inside the pomerium ONLY.
(3) MUST BE STATIONED IN ROME! The finance consul must always be in Rome to govern. Unless fighting off rebels.
(4) All diplomats (not spies or assassins) are under the command of the Consul of Finance. He can move them and use them as he sees fit.
(5) Once per full 12 turn Consul Term, can force a transfer of one retinue member/item from any Player to themselves or any other Senator.
(6) Can call Emergency Congressional Session.
(7) Will get first pick of his province to govern during the next 12 turns.
(8) Can propose 5 Edicts/Charter Amendments per 'Council' Session.
(9) Can exclude 1 avatar from participating in the congres. the so called: "lictors, remove this man" move ;) Basically only to be used when people are truely annoying in the Curio, or rebellious.

Consul of the Legion’s

Requirements: Must have been elected to this office. Must have been Praetor.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Influence: 2 + 1 Stat Influence
Vote weight: 4
Powers:
(1) Can build any military unit in any settlements he wishes unless they are part of a Provincial Governorship. Cannot construct buildings.
(2) Assumes control of the Consular Legio I (composition, see below).
(3) May choose his theater of war.
(4) All Assassins are under command of the Consul of the Legion’s. He can move them and use them in any way he wishes.
(5) Once per full 12 turn Consul Term, can force a transfer of one retinue member/item from any Player to themselves or any other Senator.
(6) Can call Emergency Congressional Session.
(7) Will get second pick of his province to govern during the next 12 turns.
(8) Can propose 5 Edicts/Charter Amendments per 'Council' Session.

Princeps Senatus

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Princeps Senatus is the “primus inter pares”. That indicates that the person so described is technically equal, but looked upon as an authority of special importance by his peers.
Requirements: Must be the in-game Faction Leader.
Influence: 3 + 2 Stat Influence
Vote weight: 5
Powers:
(1) Can propose 5 Edicts/Amendments per 'Congressional' Session.
(2) Can call Emergency Congressional Session.
(3) Once per full 12 turn Consul Term, can force a transfer of one retinue member/item from any Player to themselves or any other Senator.
(4) Once during his reign, the Princeps Senatus can automatically assume the post of dictator. The Princeps Senatus must declare he is exercising that right. He will then be appointed Dictator of Rome with no election. This right can only be invoked once. (penalty to influence after)
(5) Has the right to veto 5 propositions from the consuls&praetors, representing his influence on senior senators. However CAN NOT veto any law by the Tribunus Plebis.

Provincial Governor

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Requirements: Must be appointed to this rank by the Princeps/Senate OR be an outgoing consul/praetor. Must have been praetor.
Influence: 2 + 1 Stat Influence
Vote weight: 2
Powers:
(1) Can govern the Province(s) they have been given. This means: Set the tax level, ask unit recruitment/building construction (Should be mentioned in the SOT).
(2) Can not propose any of Edicts or Amendments per 'Congressional' Session.
(3) Once per full 12 turn Consul Term, can Prioritize one building in any build queue in any settlement in his Province(s).
(4) Once per full 12 turn Consul Term, can destroy one building in any settlement. Buildings in the barracks lines cannot be destroyed with this power.
(5) Can move any units in the borders of his Province(s) in any way he wishes unless they are controlled by another Player, including spies.
(6) Every Provincial Governor will have a Legion to command.
(7) Can appoint a Quaestor to govern any city he choses in his province.

Legatus

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Requirements: Must have served in at least 2 battles as a Tribunus Militum. Must be appointed by Senate/provincial governor. Must atleast have 15 battle points.
Influence: 1
Powers: (1) Can command 1 legion in a province which as multiple legions, as the provincial governor can only command 1 legion.

Privatuus

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Basically: an avatar without use :p Included it for completeness

The basic idea is that ppl who are 'in office' have a bigger grip on the current events during their office, while after their term, they go govern a province and ergo will have less to say than the peepz currently in charge.
The mechanic of 'office peep' choosing their provinces, will ensure that there will be a change in provinces often enough. Everybody get's the chance (or obligation) to control a different province in the course of the game.
Let me also clarify that 'province' is not the same as (city)
For example: provincia Gallia Cisalpina will be: bononia, mediolanum patavium aquilea. basically everthing above arretium. This will all be in the control of 1 governor, but the governor can choose quaestors to govern the other cities there.
For the defenition of provinces, this will be dynamic. As the empire expands/declines we can make more or bigger provinces and vice versa.
As everyone execpt the consul can only command 1 legion, in later parts of the game there will be provinces that require more than 1 legion to operate. This is were the rank of Legate comes into play.
A provincial governor may request a certain grand strategy in his province from his legates, but basically each one does what he wants with his legion :)


COMPOSITION OF THE LEGIONS:

Camillan era

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1 Leves or Accensi
1 Rorarii
1 Hastati
1 principes
1 triari (or two if we're playing with half-sized maniples)
(+family members)
1 skirmisher type (based on area where the legion operates)
2 units of allied infantry (two different pairs of Samnite, Lucanian, Bruttium, Ligurian or Gallic infantry or just any local stuff if the real distant cities
)
1 unit of pedites extraordinarii
1 unit of classical hoplites
1 unit local cavalry for a legate, 2 units for the provincial governor.

Polybian Era

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Roman core of a Polybian Legion is represented by the following units:
1 unit of Velites
1 unit of Accensi
1 units of Hastati
1 units of Principes
1 unit of Triarii (or two if we're playing with half-sized maniples)
(+family members)

The two socii alae are composed as follows:
1 units of allied skirmishers (any mix of javelineers, archers and slingers)
2 units of allied infantry (two different pairs of Samnite, Lucanian, Bruttium, Ligurian, Gallic, or Iberian infantry)
1 unit of pedites extraordinarii
1 (legate) or 2 (governor) units of allied cavalry (Campanian, Greek, Gallic, Ligurian or anything else available, or possibly equites extraordinarii)

Marian

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Roman core of a Marian army is as follows:
1st Legion
1 General
1 unit of First Cohort
1 unit of cohors reformata
1 unit of antesignani

2nd Legion
1 tribune
1 unit of First Cohort
1 unit of cohors reformata
1 unit of cohors evocata

Support
1 unit of Scorpions/arrow throwers

The allied part is as follows:
1 unit of allied javelin-men
1 unit of allied slingers or archers
1 unit of allied cavalry
Optional: 2 units of allied close-order foot

Consular Legion I for the CoL:
Camillian

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Roman core of a Camillian consular army is two legions, represented by the following units:
1 unit of Leves
1 unit of Accensi
1 unit of Rorarii
2 units of Hastati
2 units of Principes
2 unit of Triarii
familymembers
2 units of allied skirmishers (any mix of javelineers, archers and slingers)
4 units of allied infantry (two different pairs of Samnite, Lucanian, Bruttium, Ligurian or Gallic infantry)
1 unit of pedites extraordinarii
1 unit of classical hoplites
1 or 2 units of allied cavalry (Campanian, Greek, Gallic, Ligurian or anything else available, or possibly equites extraordinarii)

Polybian

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Roman core of a Polybian consular army is two legions, represented by the following units:
1 unit of Velites
1 unit of Accensi
2 units of Hastati
2 units of Principes
1 unit of Triarii (or two if you're playing with half-sized maniples)
familymembers
2 units of allied skirmishers (any mix of javelineers, archers and slingers)
4 units of allied infantry (two different pairs of Samnite, Lucanian, Bruttium, Ligurian, Gallic, or Iberian infantry)
1 unit of pedites extraordinarii
1 or 2 units of allied cavalry (Campanian, Greek, Gallic, Ligurian or anything else available, or possibly equites extraordinarii)

Freaky, you might say :D I understand if peepz dont want it all THAT historically.
But the numbers are there, if we want we can always switch all the allied troops into roman troops.

1 legion then container 3 hastati instead of 1 hastati and 2 allied infantry.
But it's just more fun to walk around with a real legion, and it adds diversity :)

The CoF legion will actually be the half of a normal legion (only the roman units: 1 hastati 1 principes 1 triarii 2 skirmish units)


There, ranks and legions redefined. Just read it, ask any question, give feedback

[mini]

I tried to tidy it up as good as possible.

This was all I could think about right now, atleast concerning the big changes to the game. I'm sure I can think of more stuff after other people have given their opinion.

i'm also available for explaining how or why i chose a specific mechanic.

[/Bean\]

Actually, I do have to agree that these are some pretty good reforms if we want it to be more historical. I think this is good for the game (directed at Navarro)-maybe we should have an OOC vote on it, but it's your game, so your final decision, and I'll go along with either. But I think this will make our PBM more original and different, and you never know, it might just work better.

Another for mini, I think. Wouldn't you agree?

[mini]

hehe :D

Well i'll read the feedback tomorrow, due bedtime here :)

[/Bean\]

Snap

[Potocello]

I think mini's reforms are great, i would love to make it more historical myself.

[navarro951]

oh noes I have just came back from school and I found out that Cicero's new commander is navarro. I hope he doesn't get my avatar killed (again).

I've a question about Consular legions though, which consul owns them/it? I suppose currently only one consul has control of a consular legion because we've only one.

well at the moment we only have the money for 1. In time yes both Consuls will have one.

Actually, I do have to agree that these are some pretty good reforms if we want it to be more historical. I think this is good for the game (directed at Navarro)-maybe we should have an OOC vote on it, but it's your game, so your final decision, and I'll go along with either. But I think this will make our PBM more original and different, and you never know, it might just work better.

Another for mini, I think. Wouldn't you agree?

Its not that im not open for change in the rules, i am. And some of these ideas are great but you have to consider this is a game of incentives. Whether all of them are historically accurate is not always the point, I also want people to have an incentive to be higher or what have you. Like having multiple Tribune of Plebs seems a bit meh...so to speak. If there were a bunch where would be the fun in that, the ToPs is like THE tribune for his time at the position. Or Consuls HAVING to stay in Rome when some of them, like Caesar and Pompeii were, are military men as well as political machines. I also feel to, regarding legion set up, no one brings into count cost and complication. It is not always as easy to give EVERY legion certain troops as we are not yet the rich Rome to be seen in the future. I will review and consider alot of Mini's idea as I see alot of good work and effort in them. Lemme see what I can come up with...