"Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."
-Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
Oh, it's very faithful to the Right all right. Or are you forgetting what exactly lies at the extreme end of that side of the Left-Right divide ?
Seems to me like someone's trying to make up some pretty tendentious political definitions here, ones that have little or nothing to do with the reality of the life political and the really existing ideologies and movements, and quite a bit with rhetorical and moral convenience...
"Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."
-Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
Godwin.
What exactly are you trying to say? That something is faithful to right-wing ideology because the Nazis did it? Naturally the same must apply to the left for Stalinists then, no?
Someone evidently has forgotten to tell me that I believe that. Where have I ever said that Hitler was left?Originally Posted by CountArach
Last edited by Evil_Maniac From Mars; 12-30-2008 at 22:31.
What, it's Godwinisation to remind someone there's been no shortage of patently Right-wing oppressive police states ? Pff. The Nazis were just the worst of the bunch - stone cold crazy actually, far off the deep end - the rest really more just odious and unpleasant. The Italian Fascists, whatever Franco and Salazar now styled their reactionary dictatorships as, any number of squalid military-junta affairs... you get the idea. They come in all flavours.
I don't remember invoking them by the name, you know...What exactly are you trying to say? That something is faithful to right-wing ideology because the Nazis did it?
Nah. What I'm saying is that there's absolutely nothing about the agenda of the political Right that precludes them from devolving into oppressive bastards as readily as anyone else. All you really need is a sufficient belief in the justification of your Cause, wtf it now might be, the "end justifies the means" mindset, and opportunity.
The USSR, for whatever it now claimed to be (and that was a lot indeed), was arguably pretty seriously far indeed removed from the goals and aims of revolutionary Marxism. Replacing the ancien regime with just another bunch of bloody-handed thugs wasn't exactly the plan, after all.Naturally the same must apply to the left for Stalinists then, no?
Probably more or less an inevitable result of the whole project, though.
Which is why I make a point of making a clear distinction between moderate-reformatory Socialism/Social Democracy/watevah (which demonstrably works and doesn't have people shot on the edge of a gravel pit) and radical-revolutionary Communism (which demonstrably failed hard and got a lot of people killed in the process). The latter gets lumped with all the other heaven-on-earth-now extremists who firmly believe they know the Truth, ie. dangerous loons.
You certainly did seem to be insinuating that oppressive and restrictive policies were by default "left", anyway...Someone evidently has forgotten to tell me that I believe that. Where have I ever said that Hitler was left?
The reductio ad absurdum (or Hitlerum, as it were ) of that is indeed arguing that Adolf was an ultra-Leftist.
Which is obviously pretty, well, absurd if you understand the first thing about the political spectrum.
"Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."
-Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
Where exactly ? In calling his party "the National Socialist Party" ? I hope you realize the "Red Nazis" who read too much into that were pretty summarily banished into the political wilderness the second the NSDAP managed to grab the power.
And rah-rah "for the honest little worker" populism isn't exactly restricted to the political Left, if that's what you're thinking about. The populists are just selling more or less the same line to the one and same audience and appealing to its concerns; whether they're Left- or Right-wing populists has nothing to do with that, although it rather tends to affect the contents of the rest of the package being sold...
Also... *cough*JoeThePlumber*cough*
QED.
"Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."
-Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
If you use the traditional right-left compass, I'd say Hitler is clearly on the right-wing. Fragony seems to be using the political compass, and his theories therefore have some credence if you look at modern extreme-right parties.
Yes, the funny thing about such a spectrum is when your side looks bad you can just change a few definitions to your liking and voila, your world is all black and white again with you on the white side.
Needless to say the guys who fly airplanes into towers on purpose do that because they also changed every definition and interpretation to the point where they are absolutely white and nice like a bunny chewing a carrot.
Oh wait, carrots also have feelings...
Last edited by Husar; 12-31-2008 at 05:25.
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
I don't trust the political compass as much as I used to Husar, especially with their 2008 Canadian Election diagram.
Perhaps I was wrong to count solicitations for charity. How about raising awareness about people in desparate situations? I don't see that either. I see people whining because people lucky enough to be born in a wealthy country don't get everything they need for free.
If poverty and human dignity are the primary concerns, then the undeveloped parts of the world deserve all of our attention. Poverty in the developed world is nothing compared to poverty in some countries. 98.5% of the socialists I've ever talked to are National Socialists or Euro-Socialists.
Except that charity also means love. State services don't capture that part.Originally Posted by Watchman
You will also find that most Socialists (At least those worthy of the name Socialist) want increased foreign aid so that we can drag these people out of the poverty cycle. However, this isn't a position that most governments are willing to take, and as such it is easier to argue for removing poverty in your home country - people are far more likely to get the message. Don't take that to mean that we believe that all poverty is equally bad, take it to mean that we are arguing for lifting poverty in countries where we can actually make a political difference.
Oh and National Socialists are not Socialists.
Last edited by CountArach; 12-31-2008 at 07:26.
Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
What type of government policies do the most to pull people out of poverty?
Here is a test: For each pair of countries, which has the worst poverty?
1 Argentina - Chile
2 Nicaragua - Panama
3 Haiti - Dominican Republic
4 North Korea - South Korea
5 China - Taiwan
6 Cambodia - Thailand
7 Russia - United States
If you picked the country on the left for all seven options, you are correct.
Here is another test: For each pair of countries which one historically has the more leftist government.
If you picked the country on the left for all seven options, you are correct.
QED left wing government policies are less efficient than free markets for pulling people out of poverty.
Your lack of historical knowledge is astounding. For example:
1) The IMF has ruined much of Argentina's economy.
2) Nicaragua was completely destroyed by the US...
3) Haiti was completely destroyed by the US... multiple times...
4) Few would use North Korea as an example of a leftist government.
5) China has almost no shred of Socialism remaining.
6) See 2 and 4.
7) The Soviet Union had guaranteed jobs for everyone and there was no unemployment. With the fall of the SU this policy left and suddenly there was unemployment and subsequently poverty...
Last edited by CountArach; 12-31-2008 at 08:25.
Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
I offer up Scandinavia as the poster child of how you do applied Leftism right. Not that say most of Western Europe has done too badly with it either...
Oh right, because the Left-Right distinction is solely about the degree of control the regime exterts on the society. And the sole difference between the two is that the Leftists are the micromanaging control freaks. How could I forget ?Originally Posted by Fragony
Did you forget somewhere that the Nazi political program was basically ultranationalist reactionarism - both traits of the far Right - taken to something of a logical extreme and beyond ? They pretty much rejected wholesale the heritage of Enlightement ideas about universalist human equality, "as much good for as many as possible" and w/e - which conversely as it happens are the very philosophical lineage the "Marxist"/Leftist end of political spectrum largely hails from.
"Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."
-Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
Also, Mangu's comparision list is made of fail and tendentiousness as it entirely disregards differences in historical starting points, resources etc. Plus seems to forget most of the LatAm examples at some point of another were ruled by some kind of tyrant, military junta or similar unpleasantness with definite Right leanings (the US made sure of that, anyway). Quite often the Left-wing regimes thereafter have been busy trying to undo the damage and socioeconomic retardation those jolly folks left behind...
Also, why's Cuba not there somewhere ? Far as I know it's a decent enough place to live as LatAm states go (as long as you don't get in trouble with the authorities anyway), and by the yardstick of LatAm autocrats Castro has really been a real softy. Plus AFAIK the improvement in general standard of living, healthcare etc. under the Communist regime has been pretty noticeable compared to what was before...
Would it have muddled the grossly simplistic equation presented too much or something ?
"Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."
-Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
Which leads to the fact that some actually wish the good old times back. Same with the DDR, many think living there was actually nicer, people weren't as harsh, heartless and competitive. Ripping eachother apart over a job is not exactly utopian for everybody. For every winner there is a loser. Only compromise can lead to win-win situations.
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
not so much
"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions." --Adolf Hitler
That really gets the blood pumping doesn't it
...your argument is based on taking Hitler's populist BS at face value...?
Jeez.
"Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."
-Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
Wow hitler talked of unseemly evaluation of human beingsThat really gets the blood pumping doesn't it
We are racists, we are enemies of today's Jews for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of the master race being according to wealth and property instead of respectable lineage, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions
From Wiki:
Stalinism is leftist, and widely recognized as such (and if you try to say Stalinism isn't leftist, then perhaps you would care to realize that you are arguing precisely the same thing as Fragony from the other end of the spectrum?). Therefore, Juche is leftist. End.Many commentators, journalists, and scholars outside North Korea equate Juche with Stalinism and call North Korea a Stalinist country.
5) China has almost no shred of Socialism remaining.
(Didn't work while they had it in full swing either.)
Guaranteed jobs, mass murder, disappearences, starvation, etcetera.7) The Soviet Union had guaranteed jobs for everyone and there was no unemployment. With the fall of the SU this policy left and suddenly there was unemployment and subsequently poverty...
North Korea is a left win authoritarian state
The Soviet Union had rampant underemployment with people going to work and doing nothing useful.
An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
"If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill
I don't suppose anyone taking part in this "enlightening" discussion would like to "enlighten" me as to the point of said exercise?
It is better to conquer yourself than to win a thousand battles. Then, the victory is yours. It cannot be taken from you, not by angels or by demons, heaven or hell.
Yes. Still left-wing.
"As long as they pretend to pay us, we will pretend to work."The Soviet Union had rampant underemployment with people going to work and doing nothing useful.
To answer the question "is Labour on the left?"I don't suppose anyone taking part in this "enlightening" discussion would like to "enlighten" me as to the point of said exercise?
IA pointed out some reasons, and I believe he is generally correct. It is true that the far-right and the extreme-right also carry some of these traits, but the moderate right generally do not, and the moderate left often do. Of course, there are exceptions.
Last edited by Evil_Maniac From Mars; 12-31-2008 at 19:51.
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