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Thread: Ships, Boats, Things that Float

  1. #1
    The Laughing Knight Member Sir Beane's Avatar
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    Default Ships, Boats, Things that Float

    It's been a while since we have had an active thread with some decent speculation about the naval side of things.

    Specifically I want to talk about naval units. There's been a lot of discussion about things such as the mechanics of naval battles, or the tactical importance, but not so much about the things that will be fighting them.

    I want to see if we can construct an accurate list of all the ships that will be included in Empire. Since there won't be as many as land units it should be perfectly possible.

    It would also be nice if we could dig up some info on some of the lesser known, but interesting, ships which might make it into the game as exotic units. (Such as rocket ships).

    Possible List of Ships in Empire - This is an informed best guess, not confirmed info

    These ships are listed in descending order of power (size and armament) until I can think of a better way of doing it. This order won't be perfect btw, feel free to offer corrections.

    Ships of the Line

    H.M.S Victory
    Britain only. I am assuming Victory will be stronger than average given its status as a Special Forces unit.

    140 gun first-rate ship of the line
    The French ship Valmy was an example of this sort of ship. It was the biggest lineship ever built. My reason for including this class is that I think I saw ships this size mentioned in one of the many previews.

    First rate ship of the line, a.ka Man-o-war.

    100 +Guns, 3 gun decks + forecastle and quarterdeck 850 to 875 crew. 2000 tons+. Presumably all playable factions.

    Second rate ship of the line
    90 to 98 guns, 3 Gun decks + forecastle and quarterdeck, 700 to 750 crew, about 2000 tons. Presumably all playable factions.

    Third rate ship of the line
    64 to 80 Guns, 2 Gun decks (or 3 early on), 500 to 650 crew, 1300-1600 tons.
    Presumably all playable factions.

    Fourth rate ship of the line
    50 to 60 guns, 2 Gun decks, 320 to 420 crew about 1000 tons.
    Presumably all playable factions.

    Fifth rate
    We have some overlap with frigates here, as frigates could be classed as fifth rate, along with small two deck cruisers. 32 to 40 Guns, 1 Gun deck, 200 to 300 crew, 700 to 1450 tons.
    Presumably all playable factions.

    Sixth rate
    Again we have some overlap here. This class could include small friagates, Corvettes, and some of the larger sloops of war. 20 to 28 guns, 1 Gun deck, 140 to 200 Crew, 450 to 550 tons.
    Presumably all playable factions.

    Interceptors/Ship of the line support

    Most of these ships would ne classed as fifth or sixth raters. I'm still gonig to give them there own seperate sections though.

    U.S.S Constitution
    Stronger than average for the same reasons as Victory.

    Razee
    A razee is a robust frigate, created by cutting the top deck off a larger ship of the line.

    Frigates are a vital part of any balanced sea-going fleet. They are cruisers that can operate independently and are swift enough to hunt down enemy merchantmen. the chance for prize money makes them popular postings among officers and men alike!

    One way of creating a large, powerful frigate is to take a two-deck ship of the line and, in effect, saw off the top deck creating a single-deck frigate. The first result is that a 64-gun ship can now only carry 44 guns, but the ones that remain are the heavier than those normally found on a frigate, typically 32- or 24-pounders rather than the expected 18s! The second result is that the razee retains the strong timbers of the original 64, making it a robust ship in combat. Thirdly, having lost its upper works, the new ship generally handles rather well under sail. All this work takes time and valuable dock space, of course.

    Historically, one of the most successful razees was HMS Indefatigable, commanded by Edward Pellew. In the company of another frigate, Pellew took on - and defeated - the Droits de l'Homme, a French 74, in 1797. During the next year or so, Pellew and the Indefatigable went on to take a further nine vessels. (Credit to CA)
    All playable factions.

    Frigate
    Fast, versatile ship designed to intercept and outfight anything but a lineship.

    Frigates are single-deck warships, used for a variety of tasks thanks to a combination of good handling, firepower and endurance at sea.

    “Fifth rate” is a Royal Navy term for the largest of the single-deck frigates, square-rigged ships that carry some 44 guns, usually no heavier than 12-pounders. Originally a French design – but quickly adopted by the other European powers – the frigate is used for pursuit, convoy protection, commerce raiding and reconnaissance work. The design’s excellent sailing characteristics and good handling, especially in inshore waters, make it a useful addition to any blockading fleet. The frigate’s ability to operate far away from a home port also makes them it a useful cruiser, carrying the fight to the enemy in unexpected waters.

    Frigates can have the advantage over larger, two-deck ships in rough waters. A frigate captain rarely has to worry about his gun deck taking on water, and can therefore fight in conditions that leave bigger ships at a disadvantage. However, fifth rates are not powerful enough to face battleships. They have the speed and handling to stay out of trouble; they do not have the strength of construction to survive a pounding! Against sloops, brigs and merchantmen, however, they are deadly. This makes them excellent postings for officers hungry for prize money and glory.

    Frigates captains made splendid role models for fictional heroes: Thomas, Lord Cochrane earned a fortune in prize money, gained the nickname “le loup des mers” (sea-wolf) and was the inspiration for fictional heroes Horatio Hornblower and Jack Aubrey. (Credit to CA)
    All factions.

    Corvette/Corvair
    (An interesting little ship. This class started out as s small boat withno more than ten guns but ended up developing into something only slightly smaller than a Frigate, carrying upto 24 guns. All factions. (Credit to Asmodius)

    Warships not commonly used in a line of battle

    Galleon
    Old, outdated ship, definitely Spain and Portugal, possibly all European powers.

    Caravel
    Old, outdated exploration vessel, Spain, Portugal.

    Oarships

    Galley
    Lateen rigged Mediterranean ship which can be rowed.
    probably Ottoman Empire, Sweden,
    Russia, Denmark and Norway, Poland-Lithuania, Venice, other Baltic and Med factions.

    Xebec
    Lateen rigged Mediterranean ship designed for large crews and high speed.
    Ottoman Empire.

    Galleass
    They were larger and had more sail than true galleys..as well as much more firepower. They were more sailing centered than rowing ....which had its disadvantages as well. This was one of the precusors to what became the square rigged man-of-war.
    Basically this ship is a heavy galley. It will probably be seen around the Med area for a few factions. (Credit to Asmodius)
    Ottaman Empire.



    Exotic/Uncommon

    Rocket ship
    Long range artillery designed to set ships on fire.
    Definitely U.S.A, almost certainly
    Britain, probably other European powers.

    Fire ship or bomb ship
    Sacrificial ship designed to sail to the enemy and destroy itself.
    All playable factions

    Steamship
    Lategame ship powered by both sails and steam powered paddles. Can sail against the wind with reasonable speed. Will likely come in a variety of shapes and sizes.
    All playable factions.

    Trading Vessels, Transport Ships

    East Indiamen
    Were large sailing vessel of the type built from the 16th to the 19th century for the trade between Europe and southern Asia. The first were Portuguese and Dutch; English Indiamen appeared late in the 16th century and eventually came to dominate the trade. The ships varied in size from about 400 to 1,500 tons and more; often they were larger than contemporary men-of-war. They were three-masted and invariably well armed for protection against piracy.

    East Indiamen were designed to carry both passengers and goods and to defend themselves against piracy, and so constituted a special class of ship. In the period of the Napoleonic Wars they were often painted to resemble warships, an attacker could not be sure if gunports were real or merely paint, and some carried sizeable armaments. A number of these ships were in fact acquired by the Royal Navy, and in some cases they successfully fought off attacks by the French. One of the most celebrated of these incidents occurred in 1804, when a fleet of East Indiamen and other merchant vessels successfully fought off a marauding squadron commanded by Admiral Linois in the Indian Ocean. The event is dramatised in Patrick O'Brian's novel HMS Surprise.
    East Indiamen were the largest merchant ships regularly built during the late 18th and early 19th centuries, generally measuring between 1100 and 1400 registered tons. Two of the largest were the Earl of Mansfield and Lascelles being built at Deptford in 1795. Both were purchased by the Royal Navy, completed as 56-gun Fourth Rate Ships of the Line, and renamed Weymouth and Madras respectively. They measured 1426 tons on dimensions of approximately 175 feet overall length of hull, 144 feet keel, 43 feet beam, 17 feet draft. (Credit to Fisherking)
    England, United Provinces, Portugal.

    Transport Ships
    Merchantmen pressed into service as troop transports. Lightly armed or unarmed trading vessels.
    All playable factions. (Credit to Fisherking)

    Escort Ships/Messengers/Small support craft

    Sloop-of-war
    In the 18th and the earlier part of the 19th centuries, a sloop-of-war was a small sailing warship (also known as one of the escort types) with a single gun deck that carried anything up to eighteen cannon. As the rating system covered all vessels with 20 guns and above, this meant that the term sloop-of-war actually encompassed all the unrated combat vessels including the very small gun-brigs and cutters. In technical terms, even the more specialised bomb vessels and fireships were classed as sloops-of-war, and in practice these were actually employed in the sloop role when not carrying out their specialized functions. (Credit to Fisherking)

    A sloop of war is usually ketch-rigged with two masts. These small vessels handle well in restricted waters.

    The ability to navigate in exceptionally shallow or dangerous waters makes sloops very useful in such seas as the reef-strewn waters of the Caribbean. They can also operate without the need for extensive onshore naval facilities nearby. They are also extremely useful as fleet auxiliaries, carrying out communications tasks and vital inshore scouting work, and can hunt down smaller prey such as privateers and small enemy cargo vessels. A sloop-of-war (sometimes a corvette in French service) is a different vessel from a civilian, merchant sloop, having a flush deck, two square-rigged masts, guns, and a larger crew.

    Historically, a post captain would rarely command a ship this small. The commanding officer was the “master and commander” (this is the origin of the modern naval rank of commander), and held the formal rank of lieutenant. Captain Cook RN commanded HMS Resolution, a sloop converted from a collier (coal ship), on his epic Pacific voyages and was highly satisfied with its performance. Sloop captains could be aggressive: before his promotion to post captain, Thomas Cochrane commanded the 14-gun HMS Speedy and managed to capture “El Gamo”, a Spanish xebec of 32 guns with a crew six times larger than his own! (Credit to CA)
    All playable factions.

    Gunboat

    A gunboat was usually a small undecked vessel carrying a single smoothbore cannon in the bow, or just two or three such cannons. A gunboat could carry one or two masts or be oar-powered only, but the single-masted version of about 50 ft length was most typical. Some types of gunboats carried two cannons, or else mounted a number of swivel guns on the railings.
    The advantages of this type of gunboat were that since it only carried a single cannon, that cannon could be quite heavy -- for instance a 32-pounder -- and that the boat could be maneuvered in shallow or restricted waters, where sailing was difficult for larger ships. A single hit from a frigate would demolish a gunboat, but a frigate facing a half-dozen gunboats in an estuary would likely be seriously damaged before it could manage to sink all of them. Gunboats were also easy and quick to build; the combatants in the 1776 Battle of Valcour Island on New York's Lake Champlain were mostly gunboats built on the spot.(Credit to Fisherking)

    Dinghy
    There has always been a need for small tender boats for transporting goods and personnel to and from anchored sailing ships.

    (Hope we see them for the lakes and rivers as military transport…at least in North America) (Credit to Fisherking)

    Canoe

    Probably a long shot, unless we see combat on rivers and lakes.

    Canoes are shallow-draft boats with a fine, delicate shape. Their perfect hydrodynamic form has a lot in common with the Viking ship. One advantage over a rowboat is that the paddler faces the direction he's going. Most Indian canoes were small, light, and fast. They'd carry a few people rapidly up and down rivers and lakes. The Iroquois built big, 30-foot-long freight-carrying canoes that could haul 18 passengers or a ton of merchandise. But even they could be portaged (carried over land) by just three people. (Credit to Fisherking)





    As you can see the list is limited at the moment. I’m afraid my knowledge relating to the Eastern factions is a little poor, especially India. Any help fleshing out this list is appreciated.

    If you want to propose a ship try nad add a little info to your post to explain why you think it will be included. I’ll update the OP as and when new info becomes available or people think of some good ideas. I myself willl be doing a little research to try and improve the list.

    As we go on I will try and write a little bit of info for each ship to describe it’s appearance, power, and role in naval warfare.

    If this list is good enough then players unfamiliar with the exciting world of fighting sail can use it as a beginners guide to ship classes and roles.

    Get cracking!
    Last edited by Sir Beane; 12-22-2008 at 22:42.


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  2. #2

    Default Re: Ships, Boats, Things that Float

    Gunboats....Small sailing ships, generally 40 or 50 feet, that carry 1 or a few more heavy cannons + swivel guns. They were inexpensive and quick to built...Able to sail in shallow/narrow waters they were often used to attack ships in harbor/difficult to reach places. Though they were very fragile in numbers they could b very deadly.(Used by all navies)

  3. #3
    Moderator Moderator Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ships, Boats, Things that Float

    Dose this help any?

    Canoes:
    Canoes are shallow-draft boats with a fine, delicate shape. Their perfect hydrodynamic form has a lot in common with the Viking ship. One advantage over a rowboat is that the paddler faces the direction he's going. Most Indian canoes were small, light, and fast. They'd carry a few people rapidly up and down rivers and lakes. The Iroquois built big, 30-foot-long freight-carrying canoes that could haul 18 passengers or a ton of merchandise. But even they could be portaged by just three people.

    (that other navy)


    Dinghy:
    There has always been a need for small tender boats for transporting goods and personnel to and from anchored sailing ships.

    (Hope we see them for the lakes and rivers as military transport…at least in North America)


    Gunboat:
    a gunboat was usually a small undecked vessel carrying a single smoothbore cannon in the bow, or just two or three such cannons. A gunboat could carry one or two masts or be oar-powered only, but the single-masted version of about 50 ft length was most typical. Some types of gunboats carried two cannons, or else mounted a number of swivel guns on the railings.
    The advantages of this type of gunboat were that since it only carried a single cannon, that cannon could be quite heavy -- for instance a 32-pounder -- and that the boat could be maneuvered in shallow or restricted waters, where sailing was difficult for larger ships. A single hit from a frigate would demolish a gunboat, but a frigate facing a half-dozen gunboats in an estuary would likely be seriously damaged before it could manage to sink all of them. Gunboats were also easy and quick to build; the combatants in the 1776 Battle of Valcour Island on New York's Lake Champlain were mostly gunboats built on the spot

    (As escort to the Dinghy and also on lakes and rivers)

    Sloop-of-War:
    In the 18th and the earlier part of the 19th centuries, a sloop-of-war was a small sailing warship (also known as one of the escort types) with a single gun deck that carried anything up to eighteen cannon. As the rating system covered all vessels with 20 guns and above, this meant that the term sloop-of-war actually encompassed all the unrated combat vessels including the very small gun-brigs and cutters. In technical terms, even the more specialised bomb vessels and fireships were classed as sloops-of-war, and in practice these were actually employed in the sloop role when not carrying out their specialized functions.

    (A better definition and as you can see it covers some of the other types)


    Royal Navy Rating System

    Ship of the line 1st Rate 100 +Guns 3Gun decks + forecastleand quarterdeck 850 to 875Crew 2000 tons+

    Ship of the line 2nd Rate 90 to 98Guns 3 Gun decks+ forecastle and quarterdeck 700 to 750Crew about 2000 tons


    Ship of the line 3rd Rate 64 to 80 Guns 2 Gun decks 500 to 650Crew 1300-1600 tons


    Frigate(Razee?) 4thRate 50 to 60Guns 2 Gun decks 320 to 420Crew about 1000 tons


    Frigate 5th Rate 32 to 40 Guns 1 Gun deck 200 to 300Crew 700 to 1450 tons


    Frigate 6th Rate 20 to 28Guns 1 Gun deck 140 to 200 Crew 450 to 550 tons


    Sloop-of-war 16 to 18 Guns Guns on deck 90 to 125 Crew 380 tons


    Gun-brig and Cutter 6 to 14 Guns Guns on deck 5 to 25 Crew 220 tons

    Last edited by Fisherking; 12-22-2008 at 17:09. Reason: guns


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  4. #4

    Default Re: Ships, Boats, Things that Float

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    Royal Navy Rating System

    Ship of the line 1st Rate 100 +Guns 3Gun decks + forecastleand quarterdeck 850 to 875Crew 2000 tons+

    Ship of the line 2nd Rate 90 to 98Guns 3 Gun decks+ forecastle and quarterdeck 700 to 750Crew about 2000 tons


    Ship of the line 3rd Rate 64 to 80 Guns 2 Gun decks 500 to 650Crew 1300-1600 tons


    Frigate(Razee?) 4thRate 50 to 60Guns 2 Gun decks 320 to 420Crew about 1000 tons


    Frigate 5th Rate 32 to 40 Guns 1 Gun deck 200 to 300Crew 700 to 1450 tons


    Frigate 6th Rate 20 to 28Guns 1 Gun deck 140 to 200 Crew 450 to 550 tons


    Sloop-of-war 16 to 18 Guns Guns on deck 90 to 125 Crew 380 tons


    Gun-brig and Cutter 6 to 14 Guns Guns on deck 5 to 25 Crew 220 tons

    You are a bit off there. Whilst technically some razee frigates and bigger frigates carried over 50 guns they were mostly classed as 44-gun 5th rates. 4th rates were ships of the line, though only really 60 gun ships were used in the line of battle by most nations. And 5th rates also included 2 decked 44-gun cruising style vessels as well which were mostly used by the Royal Navy. 3rd rate 80-gunners could also be 3-deckers in the Royal Navy during the first half of the century.
    Unit Design Lead

    Disclaimer: Any views or opinions expressed here are those of the poster and do not necessarily represent the views or opinions of The Creative Assembly or SEGA.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Ships, Boats, Things that Float

    Corvette/corvair: Smaller than frigates and larger than sloops-of-war...They carried 1 to 24 deck guns(in the french classification system), and functioned as coastal patrol ships. The english classified them as six rate until the name corvette was used in 1830 onward.

  6. #6
    The Laughing Knight Member Sir Beane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ships, Boats, Things that Float

    Thanks for the info Fisherking! That is exactly the sort of thing I want. Thanks to you to Asmodius. All those suggestions are going in the OP.

    Originally I decided not to include canoes, gunboats and dinghies based on the fact that I didn't think CA would want to represent such a small boat. But thinking about it we may as well put them in because I have seen plenty of games set in the period that do include them.

    And a reply from Jack! Excellent info! Since you've noticed this thread I don't suppose you could tell us if we are close with our suggestions or not? I understand if you can't of course.


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    Moderator Moderator Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ships, Boats, Things that Float

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Lusted View Post
    You are a bit off there. Whilst technically some razee frigates and bigger frigates carried over 50 guns they were mostly classed as 44-gun 5th rates. 4th rates were ships of the line, though only really 60 gun ships were used in the line of battle by most nations. And 5th rates also included 2 decked 44-gun cruising style vessels as well which were mostly used by the Royal Navy. 3rd rate 80-gunners could also be 3-deckers in the Royal Navy during the first half of the century.
    Thanks Jack! I stand corrected.

    I thought that 4th rate looked odd when I found it…

    Also everyone note that Gun Deck refers to covered gun decks…the main deck didn’t count, even though they carried guns there.



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  8. #8
    The Laughing Knight Member Sir Beane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ships, Boats, Things that Float

    I tidied up the OP a little and added the new info in. Give me a few hours and I'll see what I can do about adding in more detailed descriptions.


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    Moderator Moderator Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ships, Boats, Things that Float

    OK! A couple I forgot that are sure to be in the game…I am not listing Pirate Ships as they could be almost any Merchantman armed to the teeth and crowded with crew…


    East Indiamen:
    Were large sailing vessel of the type built from the 16th to the 19th century for the trade between Europe and southern Asia. The first were Portuguese and Dutch; English Indiamen appeared late in the 16th century and eventually came to dominate the trade. The ships varied in size from about 400 to 1,500 tons and more; often they were larger than contemporary men-of-war. They were three-masted and invariably well armed for protection against piracy.

    East Indiamen were designed to carry both passengers and goods and to defend themselves against piracy, and so constituted a special class of ship. In the period of the Napoleonic Wars they were often painted to resemble warships, an attacker could not be sure if gunports were real or merely paint, and some carried sizeable armaments. A number of these ships were in fact acquired by the Royal Navy, and in some cases they successfully fought off attacks by the French. One of the most celebrated of these incidents occurred in 1804, when a fleet of East Indiamen and other merchant vessels successfully fought off a marauding squadron commanded by Admiral Linois in the Indian Ocean. The event is dramatised in Patrick O'Brian's novel HMS Surprise.
    East Indiamen were the largest merchant ships regularly built during the late 18th and early 19th centuries, generally measuring between 1100 and 1400 registered tons. Two of the largest were the Earl of Mansfield and Lascelles being built at Deptford in 1795. Both were purchased by the Royal Navy, completed as 56-gun Fourth Rate Ships of the Line, and renamed Weymouth and Madras respectively. They measured 1426 tons on dimensions of approximately 175 feet overall length of hull, 144 feet keel, 43 feet beam, 17 feet draft.



    Transport Ships:
    Merchantmen pressed into service as troop transports. Lightly armed or unarmed trading vessels


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  10. #10

    Default Re: Ships, Boats, Things that Float

    A few more:

    Galleass: They were larger and had more sail than true galleys..as well as much more firepower. They were more sailing centered than rowing ....wich had its disadvantages as well. This was one of the precusors to what became the square riggged man-of-war.

    Galleys themselves can further be broken down into types....like the galliot (small galley with 18-25 oars to a side)...and fusta (very small fast galley w/ lateen rig and 12-15 oars to a side). This was the ship favored by the Barbary pirates....and let to the creation of the frigate by european powers to combat them.

    Though starting to become obsolete around 1600ish galleys would remain in use in battles until just before 1800...though mostly in the mediterranean where they were more suited.


    I suppose we wont see anything more specific in the game than just 1 uniform galley....and i could go on and on in this vein about cogs ect ect...but i think ive already gotten into more sub-classification than your looking for.

    For information on what nations navies were using what/when you can find some interesting stuff on http://www.sailingwarships.com/

  11. #11
    The Laughing Knight Member Sir Beane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ships, Boats, Things that Float

    Quote Originally Posted by Asmodius View Post
    A few more:

    Galleass: They were larger and had more sail than true galleys..as well as much more firepower. They were more sailing centered than rowing ....wich had its disadvantages as well. This was one of the precusors to what became the square riggged man-of-war.

    Galleys themselves can further be broken down into types....like the galliot (small galley with 18-25 oars to a side)...and fusta (very small fast galley w/ lateen rig and 12-15 oars to a side). This was the ship favored by the Barbary pirates....and let to the creation of the frigate by european powers to combat them.

    Though starting to become obsolete around 1600ish galleys would remain in use in battles until just before 1800...though mostly in the mediterranean where they were more suited.


    I suppose we wont see anything more specific in the game than just 1 uniform galley....and i could go on and on in this vein about cogs ect ect...but i think ive already gotten into more sub-classification than your looking for.

    For information on what nations navies were using what/when you can find some interesting stuff on http://www.sailingwarships.com/
    Good stuff! And yeah, that might be going into a little too much detail. I thought about detailing all the different sub-classes of ship, for instance the many, many kinds of Sloop. But I think if we go into too muc detail it will just confuse and intimidate people who aren't very experienced with saling vessels and the time period. Its best to keep it simple for the beginners I think.


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  12. #12

    Default Re: Ships, Boats, Things that Float

    I would love to have canoes and gunboats in! I would like to know how many canoes it takes to take down a Man-o-war lol. Or how many gunboats to take down a man-o-war.


  13. #13
    The Laughing Knight Member Sir Beane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ships, Boats, Things that Float

    Quote Originally Posted by Belgolas View Post
    I would love to have canoes and gunboats in! I would like to know how many canoes it takes to take down a Man-o-war lol. Or how many gunboats to take down a man-o-war.
    Realistically? Hundreds if not thousands. In game? Who knows? If CA go overboard 'balancing' things it could only take ten or so.

    Of course the Natives in game might have a trick or two up their sleeves. The mighty First rate canoe of the line. Two hundred metres long and packing one hundred and fifty cannons. Powered by lots of buffalo in a giant wheel.

    Of course it will be a loooong way up the tech tree, so thats alright.


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    Default Re: Ships, Boats, Things that Float

    Bomb ketch's?

    I hope that each major nation's ships are sutbley different; French ships for example were of a lighter build usually designed 'scientifically', built with speed in mind, where as British ships were more heavley built (built by skilled but 'unlearned' craftsman)with larger holds for extended crusing in bad weather.

    If it's just 1st, 2nd rate etc across most factions then it'll be a bit boring i think. Apprently even when British designs were built by other British Shipyards they came out very differently, let alone designed and built in another country with different aims for naval warfare (ie the french were much more intrested in completing the mission assigned than dueking it out on the high seas)
    Last edited by batemonkey; 12-23-2008 at 14:43. Reason: i can't spell!!
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    Cellular Microbiologist Member SpencerH's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ships, Boats, Things that Float

    Ducks, small rocks, wood, and witches.
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    We need MP games without the oversimplifications required for 'good' AI.

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    The Laughing Knight Member Sir Beane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ships, Boats, Things that Float

    Quote Originally Posted by SpencerH View Post
    Ducks, small rocks, wood, and witches.
    While all those things are able to float, they are only dubiously useful in a combat situation.


    Except for witches, they can fly over the enemy on broomsticks and play hell by turning the enemy general into a newt. It's ok though, after the battle he gets better.


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  17. #17

    Default Re: Ships, Boats, Things that Float

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Beane View Post
    While all those things are able to float, they are only dubiously useful in a combat situation.


    Except for witches, they can fly over the enemy on broomsticks and play hell by turning the enemy general into a newt. It's ok though, after the battle he gets better.
    ah funny. Quick some make a mod!


  18. #18
    Nec Pluribus Impar Member SwordsMaster's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ships, Boats, Things that Float

    What about Manila Galleons? Are we to assume these are outclassed too?
    Managing perceptions goes hand in hand with managing expectations - Masamune

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  19. #19
    The Laughing Knight Member Sir Beane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ships, Boats, Things that Float

    Quote Originally Posted by SwordsMaster View Post
    What about Manila Galleons? Are we to assume these are outclassed too?
    The manila galleions more or less fall under the category of galleons. If I remember correctly they were paticularly large galleons, but were sluggish and poorly armed. Since they were intended purely as a transport ship they probably won't be available as a naval unit.

    They may however be in the game if CA intend to replicate the Spanish gold fleets.


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  20. #20
    Nec Pluribus Impar Member SwordsMaster's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ships, Boats, Things that Float

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Beane View Post
    The manila galleions more or less fall under the category of galleons. If I remember correctly they were paticularly large galleons, but were sluggish and poorly armed. Since they were intended purely as a transport ship they probably won't be available as a naval unit.

    They may however be in the game if CA intend to replicate the Spanish gold fleets.
    They were large, displacing in the region of 2000 tons. Considering galleons were a ship type built purposefully for war, I wouldn't say they were entirely useless, even though they wouldn't really stand up to a ship of the line individually. Which is why they ceased to be used by navies in the early XVIII century as main warships.

    Yet the Manila Galleons continued until 1815, starting in 1565 which is a lot more than any other ship type in history, meaning they were good at doing what they did.
    Managing perceptions goes hand in hand with managing expectations - Masamune

    Pie is merely the power of the state intruding into the private lives of the working class. - Beirut

  21. #21
    The Laughing Knight Member Sir Beane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ships, Boats, Things that Float

    Quote Originally Posted by SwordsMaster View Post
    They were large, displacing in the region of 2000 tons. Considering galleons were a ship type built purposefully for war, I wouldn't say they were entirely useless, even though they wouldn't really stand up to a ship of the line individually. Which is why they ceased to be used by navies in the early XVIII century as main warships.

    Yet the Manila Galleons continued until 1815, starting in 1565 which is a lot more than any other ship type in history, meaning they were good at doing what they did.
    I agree that they were very sturdy ships and good ad what they did, but what the ydid din't involve combat.

    'Galleon' is a pretty broad class that encompasses small ships with two masts all the way up to four masted giants like the Manila galleons. It's true some were built for war, but others were built for exploration or for trading or for transport.

    I'm sure we will see galleons in the game as war ships for at least Spain and Portugal, I doubt however that we will see them in any role other role than as a warship.

    Incidentally this excludes several otehr classes of ships from being listed purely because they were not used for war, for instance the Dutch Fleut.

    Fleuts were the first ship to be mass-produced based on standardised blueprints. They were made to be cheap to build, using pine rather than the preferred oak, because pine grows much more quickly and cheaply. Sadly though I doubt they will be in game aside from maybe a mention in a technology or port upgrade.


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  22. #22
    Member Member Alexander the Pretty Good's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ships, Boats, Things that Float

    Only a little on-topic, but do we know anything regarding privateering?

  23. #23
    Moderator Moderator Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ships, Boats, Things that Float

    I wish we knew something about Privateers!

    They darn sure should be there!

    Maybe they will handle them as Mercenary Ships?


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  24. #24
    The Laughing Knight Member Sir Beane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ships, Boats, Things that Float

    Privateers will almost certainly appear in-game using a similar system to mercenaries. Although it would be innacurate to portray them totally as such since they were not always paid to fight. In fact the British government made a profit out of privateering, taking a percentage of the loot.


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  25. #25
    Member Member Alexander the Pretty Good's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ships, Boats, Things that Float

    I'd be equally happy with seeing them infrequently in battle but being a factor in how effective trade is. I'm currently reading Patriot Pirates, a book about American privateers during the Revolution. They seem to have been fairly costly for the British, and certainly very profitable for the actual privateers.

  26. #26
    Oni Member Samurai Waki's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ships, Boats, Things that Float

    This is a very interesting tid bit of info. I've always been interested in ship lore, but not particularly learn't in it.

    Cheers.

  27. #27
    The Laughing Knight Member Sir Beane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ships, Boats, Things that Float

    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander the Pretty Good View Post
    I'd be equally happy with seeing them infrequently in battle but being a factor in how effective trade is. I'm currently reading Patriot Pirates, a book about American privateers during the Revolution. They seem to have been fairly costly for the British, and certainly very profitable for the actual privateers.
    How effective and costly privateers were for their 'sponsor nation' seems to vary wildly depending on where they were operating, what time and what contract they signed.

    I believe that theatres such as the Caribbean produced a net profit for both the sponsor nation and the privateers themselves, other areas may not have been so profitable. It all depended on how easy it was to capture merchants ships in the area.

    Since the caribbean was a major trade centre with many islands to hide around and reefs to use as cover it was a great place for privateers (and pirates) to loot and plunder as much as they could.

    There should really be two kinds of privateer. Those who have their ships commandeered or hired to fight in war, and those who are let loose to harass merchants as and when they pleased. The former kind are more like mercenaries, the latter should help reduce your enemies trade income and grant you a percentage of it.


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  28. #28
    Member Member Alexander the Pretty Good's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ships, Boats, Things that Float

    From the American perspective, they were essentially free. They were privately outfitted and sometimes even paid to get a commission. This did cut into the available manpower (why serve your country at low, unreliable pay when you could make a fortune with a lucky grab?) and thus the Navy didn't like it, but it hurt the British. The Americans also bought captured provisions from privateers, which could be costly, but not more than the rate they were looking at (which was usually outrageous).

    I think your solution would work nicely. Allow them to function as mercenaries and additionally as an abstract factor on trade.

  29. #29
    Moderator Moderator Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ships, Boats, Things that Float

    What I got from one of the earlier pieces on the game was that having a fleet on the trade rout within a particular trade theater allowed you a cut of the profits.

    To me that means that you must split with allies and pursue enemy fleets in each particular area…as well as trying to discourage allies from sailing there…

    There are no fewer than four and possibly five trade areas in the game, Europe, India, Africa, North America/Caribbean Sea. There may be multiple routs to some or all of these as well as the Baltic and Mediterranean. (and perhaps sub areas in the others) Maintaining fleets in all of them is not going to be an easy or cheap prospect.
    Also, they have said that Pirates will be in the game and battles with them my occur.


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    the vast limits of their knowledge.
    Mark Twain

  30. #30

    Default Re: Ships, Boats, Things that Float

    If you're going to be sending your ships off around the world to cause trouble what do you think the game will be about 'repairs at sea'? If you're miles from a friendly port would you be able to repair any battle damage or just have to go into further engagments with a less than 100% ship?

    Research for onboard carpenters etc.?

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