The popes at it again..

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

A) When will the Pope and the Church stop trying to preach it's science? What really has more validity, A millennium old book with no hard facts or years of rigorous scientific research. Hmm tough choice.

B) Does the pope not understand that every time he preaches ridiculous stuff like this he encourages millions of people to follow them. The example of his no contraception policy shows the trouble it causes. If the Pope really is God's voice one earth why does he not care about saving humanity instead of sticking so closely to a book that yet again has no hard proof to support it.

You don't have to believe it. So stop complaining.

[CountArach]

You don't have to believe it. So stop complaining.

Then why bother debating or even discussing anything at all?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Then why bother debating or even discussing anything at all?

Because the two are rather different. This is a question of faith. It only effects you if you choose to believe it.

[CountArach]

Because the two are rather different. This is a question of faith. It only effects you if you choose to believe it.

The exact same things applies to political Doctrine.

[tibilicus]

You don't have to believe it. So stop complaining.

Sure I don't have to believe it, tell you what the problems is though. Millions have been put to death and condemned a death sentence by such harmless "teachings"

And it's all well and good I don't have to believe the Church's theory that all homosexual acts our sinful and Gay people are going to hell. People didn't have to believe Adolf Hitlers racial purity theory's but hey that still caused harm. The fact is words are dangerous and by speaking his words the Pope is telling millions of people growing up who might be confused about their sexuality that what they are feeling is wrong and simply them being tempted by the "devil".

That's what I have a problem with. I know I'd be pretty annoyed and mentally distraught if I grew up with some one telling me that writing with my left hand was bad and I was going to hell.

So yer point is words are harmful. therefore maybe the Pope should be a little more sensible when running his mouth about such issues..

[InsaneApache]

Godwin by post 10, is that a record?

[tibilicus]

Godwin by post 10, is that a record?

Was just heading for the easy comparison.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Sure I don't have to believe it, tell you what the problems is though. Millions have been put to death and condemned a death sentence by such harmless "teachings"

Think about it like this. The Pope says not to use condoms. But he also says not to have premarital sex. You either have to take both of these pieces of advice, or neither. The people are accepting one thing and ignoring the other, so I hardly think that their faith has an awful lot to do with it.

And it's all well and good I don't have to believe the Church's theory that all homosexual acts our sinful and Gay people are going to hell. People didn't have to believe Adolf Hitlers racial purity theory's but hey that still caused harm.

Congratulations, you managed to compare a system of racial extermination to a speech.

The fact is words are dangerous and by speaking his words the Pope is telling millions of people growing up who might be confused about their sexuality that what they are feeling is wrong and simply them being tempted by the "devil".

How is that dangerous? It might not be right (in your opinion), but it's not dangerous.

The exact same things applies to political Doctrine.

No. Political doctrine effects you if the party espousing it gets elected.

[tibilicus]

Think about it like this. The Pope says not to use condoms. But he also says not to have premarital sex. You either have to take both of these pieces of advice, or neither. The people are accepting one thing and ignoring the other, so I hardly think that their faith has an awful lot to do with it.

Well lets see here. Premarital sex is a really successfully idea isn't it? How about you marry some one then only to find out that you don't connect sexually and the most important thing about any relationship is therefore gone. That's then going to be a very happy marriage isn't it? If you believe this then good luck finding a wife because no offence it wont work out.

Congratulations, you managed to compare a system of racial extermination to a speech.

Big comparison I know. What I was trying to get across though is the fact that words are powerful and words harm.

How is that dangerous? It might not be right (in your opinion), but it's not dangerous.

Are you not in touch with reality? You know what happens when you tell a teenage kid that his feelings are wrong and that his thoughts are sinful? He's going to get depressed and upset. This could then lead to other effect such as the stress of living with his so called "infection of satan" starts to effect his school grades. Maybe it might come back to haunt him in later life when he finally realises those weren't just irrational thoughts or him being tempted by the devil but he's now stuck on a loveless marriage and hes been living a lie to himself for the last 30 years.

Even better some one who is told that their thoughts are evil and wicked decides he can't handle them any more. he goes to his bedroom wraps some rope around his neck and hangs himself. Now tell me that it's not dangerous?

It's not just about the speech it's about the whole way the Church is still pursuing ancient scripture over common sense.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Well lets see here. Premarital sex is a really successfully idea isn't it? How about you marry some one then only to find out that you don't connect sexually and the most important thing about any relationship is therefore gone. That's then going to be a very happy marriage isn't it? If you believe this then good luck finding a wife because no offence it wont work out.

You've completely missed the point. Reread.

Big comparison I know. What I was trying to get across though is the fact that words are powerful and words harm.

Words are only powerful when accompanied by actions. Hitler's words didn't result in the deaths of millions of Jews and other groups, his actions did.

Are you not in touch with reality? You know what happens when you tell a teenage kid that his feelings are wrong and that his thoughts are sinful? He's going to get depressed and upset.

Providing he isn't a militant atheist, which seems to be all the rage among teens these days. You seem to be making all your assumptions on the basis that all homosexual teens are devout Catholics. I'm a practicing Catholic and not completely in line with the Church's teachings on these matters (EDIT: I am straight, FYI). Most criticism of the Pope seems to come from non-Catholics who believe Catholics simply eat up everything the Pope says and have no personal opinions.

Even better some one who is told that their thoughts are evil and wicked decides he can't handle them any more. he goes to his bedroom wraps some rope around his neck and hangs himself. Now tell me that it's not dangerous?

Let's continue this. Kids commit suicide because their girlfriend leaves them, because of alcohol or drugs, because of a myriad of reasons. I somehow don't think, from personal observation, that what they see as "some old guy" has much influence over them compared to these things. How many homosexuals in recent times have been killed in the West as a direct result of the Catholic Church? Find me a statistic.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well lets see here. Premarital sex is a really successfully idea isn't it? How about you marry some one then only to find out that you don't connect sexually and the most important thing about any relationship is therefore gone. That's then going to be a very happy marriage isn't it? If you believe this then good luck finding a wife because no offence it wont work out.

Ok, look, sex is not the most important part of a relationship. I'll grant that bad sex is a big problem but to be honest if you don't have love, trust, respect and a whole lot else sex is not going to fix those problems. Additionally, unless you are very repressed you can tell if you want to screw someone's brains out before you actually jump into the sack.

I grant you it can make things more difficult, and it can kill a relationship but chastity does work for some people.

Are you not in touch with reality? You know what happens when you tell a teenage kid that his feelings are wrong and that his thoughts are sinful? He's going to get depressed and upset. This could then lead to other effect such as the stress of living with his so called "infection of satan" starts to effect his school grades. Maybe it might come back to haunt him in later life when he finally realises those weren't just irrational thoughts or him being tempted by the devil but he's now stuck on a loveless marriage and hes been living a lie to himself for the last 30 years.

Even better some one who is told that their thoughts are evil and wicked decides he can't handle them any more. he goes to his bedroom wraps some rope around his neck and hangs himself. Now tell me that it's not dangerous?

It's not just about the speech it's about the whole way the Church is still pursuing ancient scripture over common sense.

Thirty years ago homosexuality was barely tollerated, no it is widely accepted. On the other hand bestiality and paedophillia are not. Traditionally paedophillia was acceptable and homosexuality was not.

Traditionally there was no such thing as marital rape.

I hate to say it but the Pope is drawing on more than just the Bible, he's drawing on 2500 years of secular philosophy as well. Now, you don't have to agree with him but he has an arguement, not just a belief.

It's worth considering that the same arguement may resurface the next time we have a population shortage.

[HoreTore]

No. Political doctrine effects you if the party espousing it gets elected.

.....and religion holds no political power?`

[rory_20_uk]

It is belief. It trancends reason. The definition of belief includes that it can not be shaken with empirical data.

So what if hundreds, thousands, millions die? God's will.
So what if hundreds, thousands, millions suffer? God's will.
So what they've been two popes in the past, the obvious wealth of the Church when it preaches to help the poor, the hiding of abuse cases? It's all part of God's plan.

[Incongruous]

It is belief. It trancends reason. The definition of belief includes that it can not be shaken with empirical data.

So what if hundreds, thousands, millions die? God's will.
So what if hundreds, thousands, millions suffer? God's will.
So what they've been two popes in the past, the obvious wealth of the Church when it preaches to help the poor, the hiding of abuse cases? It's all part of God's plan.

Yes often at mass we all gather round the altar, slit the throats and butcher the bodeis of pagans and barbarians. We make sure the children drink a pint of blood each before we strip them naked and have out Godly way with them via buggery, then we torture and crucify them and send the pictures to 4chan.

Then we finfish it off by having a blood orgy and a Crusade.

Oh what fun to be Catholic!

Sorry, its just that I thought you had not achieved the maximum amounty of populist anti-church crap required by the fashion-o-meter.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/damian_...c_shock_horror

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

.....and religion holds no political power?`

Only if you vote for it. Which is your choice.

[Banquo's Ghost]

A word of warning before we continue. Apparently it is necessary each time we have a discussion on religion to request that posters read the rules carefully.

Characterising people with whom you disagree as "nut jobs" or variants thereof will attract the disapproval of staff.

Thank you kindly.

[HoreTore]

Only if you vote for it. Which is your choice.

That tops of my list of "naive statements of today".

[naut]

You don't have to believe it. So stop complaining.

[Marshal Murat]

Sure I don't have to believe it, tell you what the problems is though. Millions have been put to death and condemned a death sentence by such harmless "teachings"

Let's take another teaching, non-violence. Gandhi preached non-violence, as did Martin Luther King Jr. They talked, and talked, and talked about non-violent resistance to injustices. How well would these ideas have worked if Gandhi hadn't personally done the Salt March, or MLK the Birmingham Protests? Rhetoric can get you places, but only when actions enforce rhetoric do you see any results.
United Nations directives &tc. don't get anything done, because there is nothing to back them up. Dictators don't cower before a directive, because it has no teeth, and without teeth it is meaningless.

What I'm trying to say is, the Pope isn't in the wings of your church, holding a sniper rifle, making sure you goose-step to Catholic Doctrine. It'd be kinda cool if he was, but he isn't. You can make your own choices. If the Catholic Church can't accept you for who you are, then maybe you shouldn't be in the Catholic Church. There is alot of pressure on homosexuals I'm sure, to conform to what their family expects of them, but it's your choice, your decision.