Arguments for and against Creationism in American schools

[Rhyfelwyr]

Celtic Viking, I have to say that I agree with your views on free will. PVC represents one school of thought on the Christian views on the matter, however I believe that the scripture makes it clear that free will doesn't exist. Without getting theological, I've always thought that everything we do is inevitable, every signal transmitted through our brain was always going to react the way it did to the previous one. Even when I roll a die, I may have to treat the situation as if chance exists because I have no foreknowledge, however it's inevitable that I roll the number that I do, because I was always going to pick up the die in a certain way, drop it from a certain height, and as a result it would roll a certain distance. Maybe I just watched the Matrix too much when I was young, but that's my view on free will.

The matter of predestination is one of the most controversial topics within Christianity, and I've heard many say that the God of John Calvin is a "murderous God". But as God replied when Israel said God was unfair, "are my ways not equal?". While I understand why some people may dislike the idea of predestination when we're brought up in a culture that teaches us to be proud and value ourselves, the free will approach to salvation is no more appealing IMO - either certain people must be more deserving than others, or God merely leaves it down to chance. In such a situation, Christians should look to what the scripture tells them, and it clearly points towards predestination.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I'm not going to argue Calvinism vs Free Will here, sufficed to say that generally predestination is an element of religion, not atheism. As such I am surprised atheists are trying to use the "we are all just computers" arguement, because it begs the question, "who programmed the computer?"

Celtic Viking: When I said "I am" is the definition of God I meant that this is the self definition of God. When Moses askes "Who are you?" God's reply is, "I am, that I am."

The God of the Old Testemant defies definition, he refuses to expalin himself, he does not justify his judgements, nor his punishments.

[LittleGrizzly]

because it begs the question, "who programmed the computer?"

Im guessing the answer would be evolution

As such I am surprised atheists are trying to use the "we are all just computers" arguement

Its not far off what i think, not really due to scientific reasoning, just whilst thinking on life and fate, i do tend to believe that roger is destined to tip his coffee and hit that kid whilst he's driving, and that kid is destined to chase the ball across the road because he was destined to kick it too hard... im probably 60/40 or 55/45 in favour of destiny

As a child i often used to go to take step and then quickly turn around and step a different way, to try and step away for what destiny or god planned only to then think thats probably what god or destiny had planned anyway. It's something i believed more as a child... possibly due to being brought up with a belief in god...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I don't buy it at all, computers are incredible clumsy and primative things when compared to the human mind. We can't even build a robot that can see properly yet. This is why I am a catholic Christian (different to a Roman Catholic) rather than a Calvinist or a Muslim.

[LittleGrizzly]

Well evolution is much better at creating 'things' than us.... in fairness evolution has had longer to build us than we have had to build robots...

TBH i see the 'we are all just computers' as a way of simply presenting the argument rather than the actual argument itself...

I didn't know muslims also believed in pre destination, learn something new every day! (also means i can safely ignore teachers in uni today)

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

In Islam God is effectively constrained by fate, in Classical Christianity God is in no way constrained, nor defined; to the point that we say, "He is not powerful, he is not just, he has no knowledge" etc.

[||Lz3||]

Forgive me if I'm wrong... but so far... The god believers have only stated that science can't prove God doesn't exist... However you have neither showed a proof that god DOES exists...

2400 years ago... people thought there where many gods... now people believe there's only one god... perhaps tomorrow we will know there's no god... (Ok... well maybe not tomorrow)

[Lord Winter]

Forgive me if I'm wrong... but so far... The god believers have only stated that science can't prove God doesn't exist... However you have neither showed a proof that god DOES exists...

2400 years ago... people thought there where many gods... now people believe there's only one god... perhaps tomorrow we will know there's no god... (Ok... well maybe not tomorrow)

It can't, science is separate from it. I guess what I'm trying to say is that in the end there's no way to be sure you can either follow Pascals wager, approach with philosophical reasons or just disbelieve it doesn't matter to me as long as you keep an open mind throughout it.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Actually, there has never been any progress on the issue of God's existence, the current version of God/Gods are the winners in the race thus far, not new arrivals.

As far as Pascal's Wager goes, it doesn't work. Belief in salvatory gods is almost universally required to be open and free, i.e. not coerced. In other words, if you go in expecting salvation you probably won't get it.

[Rhyfelwyr]

In other words, if you go in expecting salvation you probably won't get it.

I always thought it was important to let people know that God offers them salvation. Of course, you cannot simply think that speaking the words of a prayer for forgiveness will get you into Heaven as US Evangelicalism leads many to believe, wanting salvation just to get into Heaven would not be in the Christian spirit at all. However, when evanglising, you have to make people aware of just how much they are in need of forgiveness - if they ask for salvation knowing the true state of sin they are in, the God would never refuse it. They can expect salvation if they are genuine, not because they feel they deserve it, but because they know that Jesus paid the price for them. The below passage is from a letter written by Oliver Cromwell, I'd just like to post it because to me it is inspiring and reassuring. He knew that God had given him salvation, he could expect it knowing God's mercy, however nowhere does he suggest that he was deserving of it:

"Truly no poor creature hath more cause to put himself forth in the cause of God than I. I have had plentiful wages before hand; and I am sure I shall never earn the least mite. The Lord accept me in His Son, and give me to walk in the light, as He is the light! He it is that enlighteneth our blackness, our darkness. I dare not say He hideth His face from me. He giveth me to see light in His light. One beam in a dark place hath exceeding much refreshment in it. Blessed be His name for shining upon so dark a heart as mine! You know what my manner of life hath been. Oh, I lived in, and loved darkness, and hated light! I was a chief, the chief of sinners. This is true; I hated godliness, yet God had mercy on me. Oh, the richness of His mercy! Praise Him for me - pray for me, that He who hath begun a good work would perfect it in the day of Christ."

[LittleGrizzly]

How does pascal's wager work out if you pick the wrong god... i mean if i was asking Ra to forgive my sins (although i don't think thats his proper use but lets pertend) would that annoy the christian god less, more or as much as being an atheist... ?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I always thought it was important to let people know that God offers them salvation.

Why? Is it not enough that He is Great, that he is Good, that his is God?

Of course, you cannot simply think that speaking the words of a prayer for forgiveness will get you into Heaven as US Evangelicalism leads many to believe, wanting salvation just to get into Heaven would not be in the Christian spirit at all.

They don't actually teach that, effective performance (You make a gesture and God makes an action) is not a part of Evangelical Christianity. Of course, that doesn't mean they are insincere.

However, when evanglising, you have to make people aware of just how much they are in need of forgiveness - if they ask for salvation knowing the true state of sin they are in, the God would never refuse it.

You focus on ther personal too much here. Why do they need to ask for forgiveness? Is it because they have sinned, or because they need salvation?

I would say the answer is because they have sinned, regardless of whether or not they will recieve salvation. If a criminal commits murder, he should admit it, he should still be hung if that is the law.

They can expect salvation if they are genuine, not because they feel they deserve it, but because they know that Jesus paid the price for them.

They should not expect savlation, they should hope for it. Your Calvin went further, and said that most Christians would go to hell even though they glorified God, because they were not chosen.

The below passage is from a letter written by Oliver Cromwell, I'd just like to post it because to me it is inspiring and reassuring. He knew that God had given him salvation, he could expect it knowing God's mercy, however nowhere does he suggest that he was deserving of it:

"Truly no poor creature hath more cause to put himself forth in the cause of God than I. I have had plentiful wages before hand; and I am sure I shall never earn the least mite. The Lord accept me in His Son, and give me to walk in the light, as He is the light! He it is that enlighteneth our blackness, our darkness. I dare not say He hideth His face from me. He giveth me to see light in His light. One beam in a dark place hath exceeding much refreshment in it. Blessed be His name for shining upon so dark a heart as mine! You know what my manner of life hath been. Oh, I lived in, and loved darkness, and hated light! I was a chief, the chief of sinners. This is true; I hated godliness, yet God had mercy on me. Oh, the richness of His mercy! Praise Him for me - pray for me, that He who hath begun a good work would perfect it in the day of Christ."

Cromwell believed he had been elected to salvation, regardless of his actions. This allowed him to murder a great many people and place the Commonwealth under an oppressive martial law. He is not an example I would choose.

Anyway, we're getting off topic. If you really want to hash this out PM me and we can start a Debate topic in a week or so when I have more free time.

LittleGrizzly, well spotted. It doesn't, or rather it goes from a good wager to a bad one.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

This all makes me think that America is not that free at all.

[Lord Winter]

This all makes me think that America is not that free at all.

Care to expand?

Not sure if your talking about our insane fringe, or the recent turn in the debate.

If its the first I agree...