What do you want in next TW title?! What?!

[lenin96]

Straight from the horses mouth eh?

A more direct answer would make that more clear.

Well setting aside that this is exactly what is happening right now and that experienced players are calling releases *large scale public beta testing*, you are right.

What you mentioned would be fun and enjoyable but would take about 10 years, maybe more.

Far is a relative concept - i dont know about you but for me it would make more sense for cavalry in RTW to have been spacecraft - then there would be a good excuse for the turning radii and the damage they do.

Maybe, but it makes more sense having maybe overpowered cavalry than spaceships in the Roman period.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion including me and you, thanks for the suggestion but when i direly need somebody s opinion i tend to ask for it.

As you said, everyone is entitled to their opinion, which means I don't have to ask you for it.

That would be less tragic but i guess it depends who you ask.
Well, setting aside that you and i dont have a clue if thats true, there is the tiny issue of what TW games have become. If you see no change whatsoever in the series over the years, then good for you.

!it burnsus!

Total war games have been evolutions of their predecessors, not starting a completely different thing, otherwise it wouldn't be the Total War series, it would be something else.

As you said everyone is entitled to their opinions, and I was simply commenting on what you said, I don't want to get into an argument other something like this, so we will shoud just forget about it.

[gollum]

A more direct answer would make that more clear.

Unless you make decisions for CA, you cant speak for CA.

What you mentioned would be fun and enjoyable but would take about 10 years, maybe more.

As i mentioned, i am sure that if CA decided to do it, it would have been released in 2 years sharp.

Maybe, but it makes more sense having maybe overpowered cavalry than spaceships in the Roman period.

Again it depends who you ask, but for me medieval cavalry in pre stirr-up antiquity is no less than science fiction, no matter how you call it.

As you said, everyone is entitled to their opinion, which means I don't have to ask you for it.

Of course not - neither you should expect me to listen to you though.

Total war games have been evolutions of their predecessors, not starting a completely different thing, otherwise it wouldn't be the Total War series, it would be something else.

Yes and no. It depends how you define the term TW and what it means to you. For some its been a few years now that it has become *something else*.

As you said everyone is entitled to their opinions, and I was simply commenting on what you said, I don't want to get into an argument other something like this, so we will shoud just forget about it.

There is nothing to forget - just your sarcasm detector is broken.

!it burnsus!

[caravel]

Total war games have been evolutions of their predecessors, not starting a completely different thing, otherwise it wouldn't be the Total War series, it would be something else.

This is not strictly true. RTW is not a direct evolution of STW/MTW but is loosely based upon them. It is a total rebuild that uses none of the same code that was used in the first two games. The campaign map game is entirely different and battles, though similar, play very differently and the AI and balance is notably worse. This has not improved in M2TW where we now have combat that this based on the animations themselves and where the individual men in the unit "queue up to fight".

In reality CA have gone for visuals and "effect" rather than for strategy and good gameplay. This new title also has me worried. You see before M2TW was released, the same thing happened as is happening now. Much speculation, people posting preposterous claims that M2TW was a new engine built from the ground up, etc, etc. It turned out that M2TW was still based on RTW. I think the same will go fo this game. From the screenshots I would say that battles at least are certainly based on the M2TW engine and that the real selling point here is the naval battles. The hope is that the naval battles will attract another horde of fans and overshadow the flaws that will still be present in the land battles.

With this release CA have shown once again that they are only prepared to go with the same map or the world theatre and will not return again to smaller scale conflicts such as the Sengoku Jidai. The reasoning behind this is that CA are trying to hit the biggest consumer base possible - that is that the fans of the previous games don't matter as the reasoning is that you will always buy the new games anyway. It shows that CA are no longer individuals willing to take on something as risky as STW, to make a name for themselves in the games industry.

The truth of the matter is that the smaller conflicts suit the engine better, they suit it perfectly in fact. The whole design, AI, diplomatic model and battlefield implimentation of the TW games is that of the Sengoku Jidai. Smaller armies marching across smaller regions to meet each other on a small battle field is what TW games are about. The simplistic diplomacy is also more suited to a local conflict rather than a national one. This is why civil war type scenarios suit it best. Ideally CA should concentrate on smaller threatres such as feudal Japan, China, Greece, the Middle East etc. China in particular would make for a fascinating TW game in itself, but CA knows that many of it's fans dismiss it because it's not a conflict based on, in our around their own countries/cultures. This is why CA goes with the "same old same old" every few years. And this is what ETW is, the same factions in a different era.

The next game will probably be Rome 2 or Medieval 3. I honestly don't think CA will do Shogun again as they fear that it won't sell.

IMHO the time has come for CA to forget the battles, as they're just gloss nowadays and make a decent turn based game with strong campaign map, AI and advanced diplomacy. In the days of STW and MTW the battles were everything and a vibrant MP community sprang up around these. RTW changed this and nowadays you play the game and fight the odd easy battle, just for kicks - if you feel like it - and the campaign map is in fact the game. Prior to this the campaign map was a simple means to manage your growing kingdom and the battles themselves, i.e. their success or otherwise, were the foundation that the kingdom was built upon and were the centrepiece of a TW game.

[Sir Beane]

It's clear you've though a lot about this topic Cynewulf, but I feel like I have to present a counterargument to some of your points.

This is not strictly true. RTW is not a direct evolution of STW/MTW but is loosely based upon them. It is a total rebuild that uses none of the same code that was used in the first two games. The campaign map game is entirely different and battles, though similar, play very differently and the AI and balance is notably worse. This has not improved in M2TW where we now have combat that this based on the animations themselves and where the individual men in the unit "queue up to fight".

I would argue that while Medieval 2 is not a direct Evolution of the actual code of Shogun, it is certainly an evolution of the concepts and ideas behind Shogun. Both games had a grand campaign map and a battle map, both games had the development of infrastructure through contrsucting buildings, both games allow you to recruit certain units in order to train an army. The only fundamental difference between them is the change to the new campaign map system, rather than the old 'Risk' style one.

The AI is not notably worse, it just hasn't improved. When I play Shogun I don't feel a great deal more challenged than when I play Med 2, both A.Is are predictable and rely on very basic tactics (or none at all in some battles).

As for balance, it was easy to balance Shogun. The game had so little variety between the factions you were essentially playing the same faction in a different colour. While accurate to the period (probably) I found it frankly rather boring.

And a quick note on men queueing up to fight. This is historically accurate. Not every man in an army could fight at once, there just wasn't enough room. There was a line of battle, and as men fell or gre tired new men moved forward to replace them.

In reality CA have gone for visuals and "effect" rather than for strategy and good gameplay. This new title also has me worried. You see before M2TW was released, the same thing happened as is happening now. Much speculation, people posting preposterous claims that M2TW was a new engine built from the ground up, etc, etc. It turned out that M2TW was still based on RTW. I think the same will go fo this game. From the screenshots I would say that battles at least are certainly based on the M2TW engine and that the real selling point here is the naval battles. The hope is that the naval battles will attract another horde of fans and overshadow the flaws that will still be present in the land battles.

This post shows that you don't seem to be aware of CA's rather well known development cycle. They call it 'Revolution, Evolution'. Shogun was a revolution, Medieval was an evolution of the same engine, Rome was a revolution with a new engine, Medieval 2 was an evolution of that engine. Empire is indeed a new engine, as it fits into the Revolution phase. If idiot fanboys claimed Med 2 was a new engine it isn't CA's fault, I don't recall that they ever calimed that it was.

I would argue that CA have gone for visual effect AND strategy and good gameplay. In my oppinion the recent games certainly have all three.

With this release CA have shown once again that they are only prepared to go with the same map or the world theatre and will not return again to smaller scale conflicts such as the Sengoku Jidai. The reasoning behind this is that CA are trying to hit the biggest consumer base possible - that is that the fans of the previous games don't matter as the reasoning is that you will always buy the new games anyway. It shows that CA are no longer individuals willing to take on something as risky as STW, to make a name for themselves in the games industry.

I really think you are exaggerating the 'risk' involved in setting a game in Japan. If CA made Shogun 2, and made it well, it would be just as popular as their other games. I have never seen evidence of CA disregarding their fans. They are one of the most open and friendly games companys out there. The fact that CA employees have posted in this forum, joking with the fans, is proof of that.

I could also argue that the fact we have had a sequel to Medieval means that CA haven't forgotten that people were fans of the old games.

The truth of the matter is that the smaller conflicts suit the engine better, they suit it perfectly in fact. The whole design, AI, diplomatic model and battlefield implimentation of the TW games is that of the Sengoku Jidai. Smaller armies marching across smaller regions to meet each other on a small battle field is what TW games are about. The simplistic diplomacy is also more suited to a local conflict rather than a national one. This is why civil war type scenarios suit it best. Ideally CA should concentrate on smaller threatres such as feudal Japan, China, Greece, the Middle East etc. China in particular would make for a fascinating TW game in itself, but CA knows that many of it's fans dismiss it because it's not a conflict based on, in our around their own countries/cultures. This is why CA goes with the "same old same old" every few years. And this is what ETW is, the same factions in a different era.

This bit really confuses me. You talk about small scale conflicts suiting the engine best, which is a decent argument although I don't agree. But then you mention China. China is not small scale. China is huge, easily on the same scale as the map was for Rome and Medieval 1 and 2.

Concentrating on smaller theatres is generally what the expansions are for, and they generally do it well. The main game need sto be bigger, and grander, to really live up to the full potential of a Total War game.

Also I would like to point out that historically the size of the armies duting the Sengoku Jidai weren't paticularly smaller than armies in Europe.

To say Empire is the same factions in a different era is to completely ignore all the political, social and technological changes that have occured throughout history.

IMHO the time has come for CA to forget the battles, as they're just gloss nowadays and make a decent turn based game with strong campaign map, AI and advanced diplomacy. In the days of STW and MTW the battles were everything and a vibrant MP community sprang up around these. RTW changed this and nowadays you play the game and fight the odd easy battle, just for kicks - if you feel like it - and the campaign map is in fact the game. Prior to this the campaign map was a simple means to manage your growing kingdom and the battles themselves, i.e. their success or otherwise, were the foundation that the kingdom was built upon and were the centrepiece of a TW game.

If you are arguing thay CA's games have become all about visual flair and not about strategy than why do you argue that the campaign map has become more important than the battles? That seems to be exactly the opposite of what you suggested earlier on in your post.

If CA made a Total War game without the battlemap then I would not buy it. Why? Because there are many, many other turn based strategy games out there that do the campaign side of things better. But no other game exists which does both turn based campaign and real time tactical combat like a Total War game.

I'm not trying to say my opinions are worth more than yours, and you obviously feel strongly about this. But I really hate to see people dump on CA when all they try and do is produce fun games that appeal to a wide audience. Sure they make mistakes and Medieval 2 could have been better, but they haven't 'sold out' or whatever it seems popular to suggest nowadays.

Btw I hope this post doesn't seem antagonistic, I merely try and present a counter-argument to your points. I have absolutely no problem with your opinions, and your arguments were clear and well written.

[Martok]

Just a quick reminder to please keep discussion civil, folks. While it has generally remained so, I have seen a few posts that are a little on the edge. Please remember that the written (or in our case, typed) word doesn't always convey one's tone very well, so we would do well to keep that in mind.

The AI is not notably worse, it just hasn't improved. When I play Shogun I don't feel a great deal more challenged than when I play Med 2, both A.Is are predictable and rely on very basic tactics (or none at all in some battles).

Sorry Sir Beane, but I must disagree with you on this. In my experience, the AI in Shogun/MTW is in fact superior to that in the later games (although Medieval 2's AI was admittedly improved over Rome's).

When it comes to PC strategy titles, I'm not a very good general. I am -- at best -- only average in this regard. As a result, nearly every battle in STW and MTW makes me sweat, because I honestly don't know if I'll win or not. In those two games, I never feel confident of victory unless I truly have a significant advantage (in terms of either numbers, position, and/or troop quality). Any battle in which both armies are of roughly equal size, I'm definitely going to have a fight on my hands. If I somehow manage to defeat an army that's significantly larger than my own, it's a major accomplishment.

The same can't be said of Rome or Medieval 2, however. In Rome, I could usually defeat armies 3-4 times my size without breaking a sweat. Even in Medieval 2, I could still beat off armies twice my size with depressing regularity.


I realize everyone's mileage may vary, and perhaps for you the AI experience really is similar regardless of which TW title you're referring to. If that's so, however, then you're one of the very few people who can claim that. There are just too many accounts of folks who, when going from Rome/Medieval 2 to STW/MTW, found the AI to be a much tougher opponent in the older games.

[Sir Beane]

I realize everyone's mileage may vary, and perhaps for you the AI experience really is similar regardless of which TW title you're referring to. If that's so, however, then you're one of the very few people who can claim that. There are just too many accounts of folks who, when going from Rome/Medieval 2 to STW/MTW, found the AI to be a much tougher opponent in the older games.

To be honest it probably is just me. I played Medival first, then Shogun, then the rest of the series in order. I can't say I have ever noticed much significant difference bwteen the various A.I's other than really obvious bugs like passive A.I and so on. It might be a result of the way I play the campaign map.

I like to think of myself as quite a good general, but only in certain situations. I tend to be rather good at defending and mediocre when attacking, in fact I rarely attack the enemy and instead prefer to let them go after me. Since I fight most of my battles the same way maybe I only see one particular set of A.I strategies?

Typically I tend to fight with a numerically inferior force consisting mostly of high-quality archers with a core of the best infantry I can get. Mostly my tactics consist of softening the A.I up from a distance then attempting to break their morale and their formation with a concentrated attack on wherever the archers weakened.

Against those sort of tactics the A.I only ever seems to do one thing. It either sits there and lets me shoot it or all of its troops rush forwards in a massed (and mostly formationless) charge.

I have high hopes that Empire will be better purely based on the fact that the same tactics will not work now every man has a gun and cover is much more important.

To be honest the comment about the A.I was probably the weakest part of my argument

As for keeping it civil, I'll try and lace future posts with a little more humour.

While my last post sounded a little preachy and a little harsh it wasn't really my intention to lecture anyone or provoke a row. I guess I got a little carried away.

Apologies to Cynewulf if it seemed like I was having a go at you.

[Martok]

I like to think of myself as quite a good general, but only in certain situations. I tend to be rather good at defending and mediocre when attacking, in fact I rarely attack the enemy and instead prefer to let them go after me. Since I fight most of my battles the same way maybe I only see one particular set of A.I strategies?

That probably is part of it, yes. Again, in my experience, the AI has always been a little weaker on attack than on defense, and STW/MTW is no exception in that regard. I can't tell you the number of times I've fallen for the enemy using the "appear weak" strategy when I'm the attacker....

[caravel]

I would argue that while Medieval 2 is not a direct Evolution of the actual code of Shogun, it is certainly an evolution of the concepts and ideas behind Shogun.

It is based on the earlier games as CoD4 or similar is based on Doom and as the new TW campaign map is based on turn based Civ type games.

The AI is not notably worse, it just hasn't improved. When I play Shogun I don't feel a great deal more challenged than when I play Med 2, both A.Is are predictable and rely on very basic tactics (or none at all in some battles).

Well this has already been covered so I'll not go into it again... needless to say that my first reaction to this was: ""

As for balance, it was easy to balance Shogun. The game had so little variety between the factions you were essentially playing the same faction in a different colour. While accurate to the period (probably) I found it frankly rather boring.

This is very subjective. I find the similarity between factions to be a strength and the variety in later games (including MTW) to be a flaw. You are right in that STW is an easier game with which to achieve balance, but itsn't that the whole point? If the game engine limits what you can do, should you not stick to those limits until such a time when you can come up with something better? STW had good balance for those reasons, but more notably because of the superior battlefield AI and better implimented RPS mechanics. In STW (excluding the MI expansion) every unit type had a role. MTW changed all this and introduced factions that differed greatly from one another and fielded many duplicate units. Due to how how autocalc determines battle outcomes, AI factions that were cavarly heavy such as the Turks would always lose when controlled by the AI. The same problem has been perpetuated in RTW, with factions such as Egypt, Pontus and Britannia always exploding all over the map. The Roman factions were artificially skewed to become more powerful than the other factions. They get the Marian Reforms where they a whole load of even more powerful units. In reality for the Romans a single legionary unit would have been enough. This would then have been upgraded come the reforms. The transition from Hastatii to Principes would be best represented by valour as the unit gains experience. It is then up to the player to decide where he places his units in the battle line.

This post shows that you don't seem to be aware of CA's rather well known development cycle. They call it 'Revolution, Evolution'. Shogun was a revolution, Medieval was an evolution of the same engine, Rome was a revolution with a new engine, Medieval 2 was an evolution of that engine. Empire is indeed a new engine, as it fits into the Revolution phase. If idiot fanboys claimed Med 2 was a new engine it isn't CA's fault, I don't recall that they ever calimed that it was.

The post shows you nothing of the sort. I have seen it but I don't readily soak up this kind of "marketing". The way I see it, so far we've had innovation: STW, then we've had something based on STW: MTW. After this we've had the disaster that was RTW and the disaster based on that. I don't call RTW "revolution" as it was simply a rework of STW/MW based on a different period. If CA had stopped at MTW and another company had released RTW would you call it a "revolution" then?

I would argue that CA have gone for visual effect AND strategy and good gameplay. In my oppinion the recent games certainly have all three.

You're entitled to your opinion of course, but I would say that CA have gone for visual effect and the impact that goes with it. Since RTW the gameplay on the battlemap has hardly improved.

I really think you are exaggerating the 'risk' involved in setting a game in Japan. If CA made Shogun 2, and made it well, it would be just as popular as their other games. I have never seen evidence of CA disregarding their fans. They are one of the most open and friendly games companys out there. The fact that CA employees have posted in this forum, joking with the fans, is proof of that.

I could also argue that the fact we have had a sequel to Medieval means that CA haven't forgotten that people were fans of the old games.

I'm not exaggerating it at all. Larger companies have bigger targets to meet. CA now being part of Sega must meet those targets for release dates and projected sales. If they release S2TW and only a handful part with their cash then CA are in trouble. You have to remember that you as a seasoned player and forum regular are not the target consumer. The target is the younger player in western europe or north america that will see something that interests them enough to make them want to take the game to checkout. Feudal Japan is something that few people in those regions know anything about. So CA are trying to hit the largest possible consumer base. This is why they did ETW because it includes the US as a faction as well as all of the typical European powers.

This bit really confuses me. You talk about small scale conflicts suiting the engine best, which is a decent argument although I don't agree. But then you mention China. China is not small scale. China is huge, easily on the same scale as the map was for Rome and Medieval 1 and 2.

You can criticise me for my choice of wording. But to me a small scale conflict is one that is not a "world conflict". I would, perhaps wrongly, class China during the "Romance of the three Kingdoms" period, as just that. It would involve a specific region, not the whole of Asia, or all of Europe or the world but just those regions that are relevant to that particular era. The same would go for anything based on ancient Greece. I would probably only need the balkans, Asia minor and parts of the near east. IMHO these sorts of maps allow for many more provinces in a small area, better gameplay and more balanced factions. They are also more immersive than the generic "Europe" maps used in MTW, RTW and M2TW.

Concentrating on smaller theatres is generally what the expansions are for, and they generally do it well. The main game need sto be bigger, and grander, to really live up to the full potential of a Total War game.

No this is what CA tell you what the expansions are for, or what you have assumed they are for. The main game does not have to be "bigger and grander" as you put it, again this is the same "bigger, more, stronger, more powerful units, 1000s of men" idea that makes up most of the hype about these games. TW games have become playthings for those that want to defeat the enemy with ease and use some of the uber toy units to achieve this. It's all about supply/demand. The player is baited with a continuous flow of new units to keep them interested. They will then take this unit out onto the field to see what it does. I like to refer to these as "toys".

Also I would like to point out that historically the size of the armies duting the Sengoku Jidai weren't paticularly smaller than armies in Europe.

I'm not speaking historically. So an army sent to Invade, for example, Egypt would only need to be the same size as an army sent to invade a single province of Japan? My point is that the smaller armies make more sense in the Sengoku setting because it's a civil war, and each battle is simply that, a battle. The battles in MTW, RTW and M2TW are in real terms wars in themselves. Again to clarify TW battles are more like battles for counties or cities, not entire "provinces" or countries.

To say Empire is the same factions in a different era is to completely ignore all the political, social and technological changes that have occured throughout history.

No to say that it's the same factions in a different era is perfectly true, because for the most part it will be just that. Saying that does not take anything away from the technological advances of the period. We're not talking about technology but the cultural aspects of the game it's intended target consumer.

If you are arguing thay CA's games have become all about visual flair and not about strategy than why do you argue that the campaign map has become more important than the battles? That seems to be exactly the opposite of what you suggested earlier on in your post.

No, the campaign map is all about visual flare and the battles are just a showpiece, an experiment in visuals. There is nothing in the battles that leaps out at you and says "strategy", "tactics" etc. The battles are visual slugfests where the player can win easily almost every time. They are just a selling point of the game like the naval battles will become in the next title. The "game" itself plays out on the campaign map. If you think the battles in RTW/M2TW are challenging then I doubt very much if you've played STW/MTW to any real extent.

If CA made a Total War game without the battlemap then I would not buy it. Why? Because there are many, many other turn based strategy games out there that do the campaign side of things better. But no other game exists which does both turn based campaign and real time tactical combat like a Total War game.

Exactly. There are plenty of turn based strategy games out there that do what RTW/M2TW try to do, but better. So instead of TW games splitting into three (Campaign map TBS/RTS Land battles/RTS Naval battles) and doing none of them well, they sould perhaps concentrate on doing the land battles well as this is what TW is all about after all. In it's present form TW is likely to become a jack of all trades and master of none.

But I really hate to see people dump on CA when all they try and do is produce fun games that appeal to a wide audience. Sure they make mistakes and Medieval 2 could have been better, but they haven't 'sold out' or whatever it seems popular to suggest nowadays.

Games that appeal to a wide audience are available on the Nintendo Wii.

Btw I hope this post doesn't seem antagonistic, I merely try and present a counter-argument to your points. I have absolutely no problem with your opinions, and your arguments were clear and well written.

Not at all.

[Sir Beane]

It is based on the earlier games as CoD4 or similar is based on Doom and as the new TW campaign map is based on turn based Civ type games.

I would argue that there is a little more of a link between Medieval to and Shogun than between COD4 and Doom. While the Total War series has changed, to me it still has the 'feel' of a Total War game. I can't really describe it any better than that.

Well this has already been covered so I'll not go into it again... needless to say that my first reaction to this was: ""

Yeah... that wasn't my best talking point really.

This is very subjective. I find the similarity between factions to be a strength and the variety in later games (including MTW) to be a flaw. You are right in that STW is an easier game with which to achieve balance, but itsn't that the whole point? If the game engine limits what you can do, should you not stick to those limits until such a time when you can come up with something better? STW had good balance for those reasons, but more notably because of the superior battlefield AI and better implimented RPS mechanics. In STW (excluding the MI expansion) every unit type had a role. MTW changed all this and introduced factions that differed greatly from one another and fielded many duplicate units. Due to how how autocalc determines battle outcomes, AI factions that were cavarly heavy such as the Turks would always lose when controlled by the AI. The same problem has been perpetuated in RTW, with factions such as Egypt, Pontus and Britannia always exploding all over the map. The Roman factions were artificially skewed to become more powerful than the other factions. They get the Marian Reforms where they a whole load of even more powerful units. In reality for the Romans a single legionary unit would have been enough. This would then have been upgraded come the reforms. The transition from Hastatii to Principes would be best represented by valour as the unit gains experience. It is then up to the player to decide where he places his units in the battle line.

There is a lot here I agree with, especially your point about the rediculously overpowered romans in Rome. However I would much rather see variety than balance.

I don't play Total War games purely for the strategic and tactical challenge. I like to play them in part because they are a great way to put my self in history. The history of the world fascinates me, but sadly the only way to experience it directly is through various forms of media, books, movies games etc.

Games hold the unique distinction of being interactive, which is why they are my preferred method. I love the variety of the later Total War games, and the more variety the better. Sadly I think a truly balanced game would have to drastically reduce the variety and number of different units, and probably the number of factions as well. While a small scale conflict is perhaps better for a balance and gameplay perspective, for me it would sacrifice part of the overall experience. My ideal Total War game would feature the entire globe, with all factions present at the time represented as fully as possible. It would be a nightmare to balance but it would be wonderful for historical colour and variety.

'Balance' is really something only ever found in games. In reality not all men are created equal, and nor are all countries or factions. That some factions have it better than others is part of the challenge for me. Indeed, in Empire I am looking forward to unlocking a tiny place like Savoy and using it to conquer my larger, richer neighbours.If they have better units or better technology I will just have to work harder.

Balance is really quite a divisive issue. It means a lot in multiplayer and less in singleplayer, to some people it is everything and to others it is nothing. I personally would rather have variety first then balance second, but that is totally my opinion and I wouldn't expect anyone to agree with me.

The post shows you nothing of the sort. I have seen it but I don't readily soak up this kind of "marketing". The way I see it, so far we've had innovation: STW, then we've had something based on STW: MTW. After this we've had the disaster that was RTW and the disaster based on that. I don't call RTW "revolution" as it was simply a rework of STW/MW based on a different period. If CA had stopped at MTW and another company had released RTW would you call it a "revolution" then?

Putting discussion over marketing buzzwords aside for a moment my point was that Empire is definitely a new engine. Whether Rome was a disaster are not it can't be argued that it definitely used a different engine than Shogun and Medieval hence the term 'revolution'.

If CA had stopped at Medieval and another company had made Rome under the Total War banner then yes it would have been a revolution if we take revolution to mean that it used a new game engine.

A true revolution of the Total War series would only come if CA suddenly dropped the idea of a campaign map and a battle map and just made an FPS set in Rome. Otherwise the next game will always be an evolution of the idea behind Shogun.

I persoanlly don't see a problem with just improving on what the last game did. I don't expect CA to make a major change in gameplay every game. I guess I'd rather they stick with tried and true rather than risky experimentation.

I'm not exaggerating it at all. Larger companies have bigger targets to meet. CA now being part of Sega must meet those targets for release dates and projected sales. If they release S2TW and only a handful part with their cash then CA are in trouble. You have to remember that you as a seasoned player and forum regular are not the target consumer. The target is the younger player in western europe or north america that will see something that interests them enough to make them want to take the game to checkout. Feudal Japan is something that few people in those regions know anything about. So CA are trying to hit the largest possible consumer base. This is why they did ETW because it includes the US as a faction as well as all of the typical European powers.

This is assuming that the average gamer would not buy a game set in Japan but I believe they probably would. Much of the Western World is in love with Japanese culture at the moment. Shogun was a big success the first time and I have no reason to doubt it would be a second.

If we assume for a moment that Shogun 2 is a risk, and would not sell well. Would you want CA to make it anyway? I would rather they kept selling out and giving us popular games set in Europe rather than losing money on unpopular titles and going out of business.

My argument is that they can't win. They either give people big flashy titles and make money, but get complaints about not wanting to take risks on smaller games. Or they make a smaller better balanced game, satisfy the purists and then go bankrupt.

You can criticise me for my choice of wording. But to me a small scale conflict is one that is not a "world conflict". I would, perhaps wrongly, class China during the "Romance of the three Kingdoms" period, as just that. It would involve a specific region, not the whole of Asia, or all of Europe or the world but just those regions that are relevant to that particular era. The same would go for anything based on ancient Greece. I would probably only need the balkans, Asia minor and parts of the near east. IMHO these sorts of maps allow for many more provinces in a small area, better gameplay and more balanced factions. They are also more immersive than the generic "Europe" maps used in MTW, RTW and M2TW.

I would personally love to see a Total War game based around Asia, featuring China, Japan, Mongolia, Vietnam, Korea, all the way down to India and Indonesia. I wouldn't want it to be to narrow in focus though.

Ideally I would love CA to blend your idea of small scale balanced conflicts with CA's larger, more varied campaign. I would love to see some sort of system where we have the grand campaign map, but with another level of 'zoom' where we could get nearer to the action with smaller provinces and a greater level of terrain detail.

No this is what CA tell you what the expansions are for, or what you have assumed they are for. The main game does not have to be "bigger and grander" as you put it, again this is the same "bigger, more, stronger, more powerful units, 1000s of men" idea that makes up most of the hype about these games. TW games have become playthings for those that want to defeat the enemy with ease and use some of the uber toy units to achieve this. It's all about supply/demand. The player is baited with a continuous flow of new units to keep them interested. They will then take this unit out onto the field to see what it does. I like to refer to these as "toys".

Name an uber unit in Medieval 2. There are a few flashy units such as elephants, but they aren't obtainable as a playable faction. Units such as chivalric knights are 'uber' in the sense that they beat older, more out of date units, but they are available to almost every faction. Medieval and Rome give you new units because they are set over a large enough period of time for technology and tactics to change and present the player with new options superior to those available before.

In real life conflicts there was almost alywas innovation and technological advancement. I like the feeling of slowly working my way up to get bigger and better toys to play with. It may sound a little shallow, but working hard and getting some new shiny things as a payoff is a lot of fun.

Total War games are indeed playthings for people who want to beat up the A.I with fancy units, but they ar ealso playthings for people who want to use mediocre units or even inferior units to beat up they A.I. I don't se ea problem with the game allowing you to do both.

I'm not speaking historically. So an army sent to Invade, for example, Egypt would only need to be the same size as an army sent to invade a single province of Japan? My point is that the smaller armies make more sense in the Sengoku setting because it's a civil war, and each battle is simply that, a battle. The battles in MTW, RTW and M2TW are in real terms wars in themselves. Again to clarify TW battles are more like battles for counties or cities, not entire "provinces" or countries.

This is certainly a problem of scale, but Shogun was only slightly better than the later games have been. Maybe you would need a bigger army to invade Egypt than you would a single Japanese province. You might not. Egypt is mostly desert, Japan is very densely populated. Size isn't everything.

Wars to take entire countries very frequently involved only a large scale battle or two. Some of the battles during the Sengoku Jidai featured troop numbers comparable to battles in Europe where England was attempting to take the whole of France.

Medieval, Rome, Medieval 2 all feature far less men than real life battles would have done. I would prefer CA scaled up the number of men, rather than scaling down geographical scope though.


[QUOTE=Cynewulf;2094648]

No to say that it's the same factions in a different era is perfectly true, because for the most part it will be just that. Saying that does not take anything away from the technological advances of the period. We're not talking about technology but the cultural aspects of the game it's intended target consumer.

I agree CA might be getting stuck in a rut by just featuring Europe, but Empire also features North America and India. I imagine that the next game may have an even greater scope with even more factions. If you want to avoid featuring the same factions then this is the way to do it.

I sitll think that there are huge differences between factions in say, Rome and those in Empire. Aside from geographical location there isn't much to compare between British Redcoats and Woad covered Iceni warriors.

No, the campaign map is all about visual flare and the battles are just a showpiece, an experiment in visuals. There is nothing in the battles that leaps out at you and says "strategy", "tactics" etc. The battles are visual slugfests where the player can win easily almost every time. They are just a selling point of the game like the naval battles will become in the next title. The "game" itself plays out on the campaign map. If you think the battles in RTW/M2TW are challenging then I doubt very much if you've played STW/MTW to any real extent.

I wouldn't argue that the campaign map is about visual flair. It certainly doesn't strike me as paticularly visually impressive. If it is what CA are going for then thay have failed miserably.

I think that compared to almost every other game on the market the TW series are very good at representing tactics and strategy. The fact that morale, tiredness, terrain advantage, weapon advantage, flanking, charging and all those other factors are implemented must count for something.

I would also argue that there hasn't been a game yet where the player can't easily win almost every time. I have never played a game where the A.I has beaten me at tactics or strategy, even games famed for A.I such as Gal Civ 2. If you want CA to program an A.I that can reliably beat a human then you had better be prepared to give them some serious grant money, a team of excellent programmers, and a heck of a lot of time.

I also don't think RTW or M2TW were challenging, and neither was STW or MTW really.

If you want to get beaten in a battle of tactics by a computer program then there are a number of chess simulations I can recommend.

Exactly. There are plenty of turn based strategy games out there that do what RTW/M2TW try to do, but better. So instead of TW games splitting into three (Campaign map TBS/RTS Land battles/RTS Naval battles) and doing none of them well, they sould perhaps concentrate on doing the land battles well as this is what TW is all about after all. In it's present form TW is likely to become a jack of all trades and master of none.

Since there are plenty of games out already that do that kind of thing better, why not buy them instead? There are also games that do the battlefield side of things better than Total War. There are not, however, any games that do both better. That is why Total War is so succesful, to lose one part of that combo would be disastrous. To be honest it's better to do reasonably well at everything than do one thing perfectly and nothing else.

If I get bored of the campaign map in a TW game I can fight a few battles. Maybe that involves 20 units of elit ecannon vs. one unit of very nervous french peasants, maybe it involves trying to defeat a numerically superior force through superior tactics, both can be fun.

And then when I get bored of that I can go back to the campaign map for a little bit of strategy and logistics.

In Empire if I get bored of both of those I can go and mess around on a boat.

In any other game, if I get bored of the fighting or bored of the campaigning then I stop playing the game.


All in all it really sounds like we want differnt things ou tof our Total War experience. Empire might not be the game that can please both of us, but I sincerely hope it holds just as much enjoyment for you as it (hopefully will) for me.

[lenin96]

Unless you make decisions for CA, you cant speak for CA.

I wasn't speaking for CA.

As i mentioned, i am sure that if CA decided to do it, it would have been released in 2 years sharp.

And it would definately be incomplete and who would play it.

Again it depends who you ask, but for me medieval cavalry in pre stirr-up antiquity is no less than science fiction, no matter how you call it.

Unlike spaceships, medieval cavalry was real, so it isn't science fiction.

Of course not - neither you should expect me to listen to you though.

I don't.

There is nothing to forget - just your sarcasm detector is broken.

!it burnsus!

There was no sarcasm.

[Martok]

I think we've gotten somewhat off-topic here (and I'm just as guilty as anyone of helping cause that ). If we want to continue debating this, we should do so elsewhere (probably in the Entrance Hall). In the meantime, let's get back to the original subject.



I would honestly love to see a game set in either China's Spring & Autumn and/or Warring States period(s). There are enough factions to make it interesting, and neither of them particularly stuck out as being likely to conquer their neighbors -- they all had a decent shot at ruling China and establishing a new dynasty. The era also saw a rise in iron weapons, which helped changed warfare dramatically in that region.

Finally, you could play as the kingdom of Wu and hope that perhaps a certain military strategist might become available as a general....

[Sir Beane]

I would honestly love to see a game set in either China's Spring & Autumn and/or Warring States period(s). There are enough factions to make it interesting, and neither of them particularly stuck out as being likely to conquer their neighbors -- they all had a decent shot at ruling China and establishing a new dynasty. The era also saw a rise in iron weapons, which helped changed warfare dramatically in that region.

Finally, you could play as the kingdom of Wu and hope that perhaps a certain military strategist might become available as a general....

I would love to see a game set during the Romance of the Three Kingdoms era. While it is heavily fictionalised in modern media it would certainly make an interesting period to cover.

Has anyone here ever played one of the Dynasty Warriors series of games by Koei? It would be great (but awful from an accuracy and tactical perspective) to see the rediculously powerful generals from those games appear on the battlefield with their full set of unbelivably powerful attacks.

Lastly I would love to see an entire army routed by one man on a red horse, carrying a gigantic halberd.

L-L-L-L-LU BU! *Dies*

*Editor's note. This poster does not actual want CA to attempt to include a beat-em-up section into its games, no matter how awesome that might potentially be*

[rabcarl]

American civil war would be an awesome time period if it doesn't get covered when ETW comes out. Also maybe as an expansion pack for ETW they could have a smaller mini-campaign in the Caribbean in the 1500s or 1600s. When you think about it, that would be really cool! You could play as a general or governor of an island and only have limited resources supplied from the mother country with which to dominate the Carribbean.

[Spino]

I would really love it if, provided the AI in Empires is solid, CA rehashed Rome but gave the other major factions of that period equal treatment.

On the other hand I could really go another installment of Shogun, a remake is long overdue.

Beyond that China's Three Kingdoms would be great.

[peacemaker]

i voted for asian:tw. not only do i love samurais and early rocket launchers and stuff, but they have NINJAS(hopefully). i think rome:tw was already a great game, i personally think its fine as it is. however, i cant play it since something got corrupted....